odd problem.....
#1
06-12-2011, 02:09 PM
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odd problem.....
So my gf was out on her gio 200cc beast the other week and all of a sudden it started to make, what i thought, was a grinding noise in the transmission. As i got closer i realized it wasnt. What it actually was, was the starter engaging and trying to start the bike although it was already running and she was moving in 1st gear. I went to turn the key off as I could tell it was starting to kill the battery. Oddly enough with the key off and the quad no longer running it was STILL trying to crank over. Needless to say the battery soon died and I wasnt able to start it and had a long push home. Once home the only thing I have done was put the battery charger on it to no avail. It wont even accept a charge.
Any one else have this problem or have any idea where to start to look for the problem? I am fairly mechanically inclined but am lost when it comes to electrical
TIA
Any one else have this problem or have any idea where to start to look for the problem? I am fairly mechanically inclined but am lost when it comes to electrical
TIA
#2
06-12-2011, 03:25 PM
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If your starter motor is still running even with the ignition off then your solenoid is stuck closed. Also look to see if the wires on the two solenoid screw posts are shorted together (they're not supposed to be).
I'm assuming your using the proper charger setting for quad batteries (no more than two amps). You won't be able to charge the battery since the starter motor will suck up all the battery charge current (and still not have enough torque to turn it either). Charge current is 2 amps. Starters draw 30 to 40 amps. It's like trying to fill a bathtub with a giant hole in it
.
Disconnect (unbolt) the solenoid wire that goes to the starter motor to disconnect it. Then try to charge the battery and see if it does any better.
I'm assuming your using the proper charger setting for quad batteries (no more than two amps). You won't be able to charge the battery since the starter motor will suck up all the battery charge current (and still not have enough torque to turn it either). Charge current is 2 amps. Starters draw 30 to 40 amps. It's like trying to fill a bathtub with a giant hole in it
. Disconnect (unbolt) the solenoid wire that goes to the starter motor to disconnect it. Then try to charge the battery and see if it does any better.
#4
06-12-2011, 03:55 PM
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Forget my previous post. I found the solenoid and disconnected the wire to the starter. No shorting between the two terminals. With the solenoid disconnected it clicks when i push the start button and the battery charges no problem. With the starter wire connected to the solenoid the battery is now charging. However, when i go to start it, with everything connected there is a series of rapid clicks from the starter and the battery voltage drops way down. So is it the starter or solenoid thats the problem?
#5
06-12-2011, 05:09 PM
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Sounds like your solenoid has come unstuck and is now functioning, but you may want to consider replacing it since it might happen again.
When you push the start button it:
A) hooks 12 volts across a coil of wire in the solenoid,
B) which generates a magnetic field,
C) which sucks down a steel plate,
D) which shorts those two terminal posts on the solenoid together,
E) which hooks the battery up directly to the starter motor, making it turn
But your battery is only weakly charged (or maybe just plain bad). A weakly charged battery can drive light loads, but the voltage will collapse unde heavy loads such a the draw from a starter motor. So when the start button is pushed:
1) the solenoid coil (a light load) sucks down that steel plate and hooks up the starter (a heavy load).
2) The voltage collapses, there is no longer enough voltage to keep the steel plate sucked down,
3) the connection to the starter motor is removed as the steel plate pops back up,
4) the battery voltage recovers,
5) the cycle repeats, starting at step 1.
This repeated opening and closing of the starter solenoid makes a buzzing sound. Sound may also come out of the starter motor as it attempts to turn a bit each time.
Charge your battery some more. If your impatient and want to see if your starter motor will turn and the quad start, jump the quad battery to your car battery for a quick test. Be sure to get the polarity right when jumping to your car - positive to positive, negative to negative.
When you push the start button it:
A) hooks 12 volts across a coil of wire in the solenoid,
B) which generates a magnetic field,
C) which sucks down a steel plate,
D) which shorts those two terminal posts on the solenoid together,
E) which hooks the battery up directly to the starter motor, making it turn
But your battery is only weakly charged (or maybe just plain bad). A weakly charged battery can drive light loads, but the voltage will collapse unde heavy loads such a the draw from a starter motor. So when the start button is pushed:
1) the solenoid coil (a light load) sucks down that steel plate and hooks up the starter (a heavy load).
2) The voltage collapses, there is no longer enough voltage to keep the steel plate sucked down,
3) the connection to the starter motor is removed as the steel plate pops back up,
4) the battery voltage recovers,
5) the cycle repeats, starting at step 1.
This repeated opening and closing of the starter solenoid makes a buzzing sound. Sound may also come out of the starter motor as it attempts to turn a bit each time.
Charge your battery some more. If your impatient and want to see if your starter motor will turn and the quad start, jump the quad battery to your car battery for a quick test. Be sure to get the polarity right when jumping to your car - positive to positive, negative to negative.
#6
06-15-2011, 09:51 AM
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You are an electrical genius! So im guessing i need a new solenoid as it is sticking one minute and fine the next. So my question is, would an intermittent solenoid keep the quad from starting? Before resolving that issue i decided to install a high performance CDI. A Canoli one(Gold colored box). However, the harness didnt match. So i spliced everything wire for wire color to color. On the CDI there were 2 green wires on the 4 prong box and i only connected one to the quad harness end, as i assumed it was just the ground. Now the quad turns over and over but wont fire. I removed the plug and have no spark.....
#7
06-15-2011, 10:57 PM
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A defective solenoid will only keep the starter from turning correctly. It will not prevent spark, except for a slow turning starter motor that doesn't muster enough stator trigger signal to fire the CDI. So if your starter is spinning normal speed, then the solenoid is not your problem.
And yes, I would replace an intermittent solenoid. They are cheap. Just about any quad solenoid will work as long as you can fit mechanically. They all do the same thing.
I assume you meant "Casoli" CDI. I've never had one of these in my hands, but I seem to recall reading that these are AC powered CDI's. If the CDI you replaced is DC powered then your wiring harness will not work with the new CDI.
I would also hook up that other ground wire. Just short it to the other. It may be redundant, but maybe not. Inside the 6 pin CDI's those two leads are shorted together. It just might be necessary to have these two connected for the CDI to work right. If it isn't necessary, at least it won't hurt anything.
Here is a generic prodedure on how to check whether your quad is wired for a DC powered CDI or and AC powered CDI:
And yes, I would replace an intermittent solenoid. They are cheap. Just about any quad solenoid will work as long as you can fit mechanically. They all do the same thing.
I assume you meant "Casoli" CDI. I've never had one of these in my hands, but I seem to recall reading that these are AC powered CDI's. If the CDI you replaced is DC powered then your wiring harness will not work with the new CDI.
I would also hook up that other ground wire. Just short it to the other. It may be redundant, but maybe not. Inside the 6 pin CDI's those two leads are shorted together. It just might be necessary to have these two connected for the CDI to work right. If it isn't necessary, at least it won't hurt anything.
Here is a generic prodedure on how to check whether your quad is wired for a DC powered CDI or and AC powered CDI:
The 2 plug 6 wire CDIs come in two different designs. One is powered off 12 volts DC, and the other is powered off a moderately high voltage AC which comes from the stator. Unfortunately there is no reliable way to tell the difference between the two by just looking at them. To be sure you need to use a meter to find out which you have:
1) Unplug the CDI, and turn on the ignition. Do not crank the starter motor. Use a meter to meausure the *DC* voltage on the pin labeled "AC ignition power" in the wiring harness to the ground pin in the same connector. If you measure 12 volts DC then you have a DC powered CDI.
2) If you don't measure 12 volts DC on the ignition power pin, then switch the meter over to measure AC volts on the 200 volt scale. While cranking the starter motor, measure the AC voltage on the "AC Ignition Power" pin to the the Ground pin. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC. If you measure AC voltage when the starter is turning then you have an AC powered CDI.
Using a meter is the only 100% reliable way to figure out if your CDI is AC or DC powered. But there are some clues you can use that are usually (but not always) correct:
A) DC CDIs tend to be a little larger than their AC powered counterpart. This is because the DC powered CDI needs a bunch more circuitry to convert the 12 volts DC to the moderately high voltage supply that CDIs must have.
B) Most (but not all) DC powered quad ignition systems do not use the kill switch input pin. The cDI connector pin usually has no wire tied to it. AC powered quad ignition systems usually do use the kill switch input pin.
1) Unplug the CDI, and turn on the ignition. Do not crank the starter motor. Use a meter to meausure the *DC* voltage on the pin labeled "AC ignition power" in the wiring harness to the ground pin in the same connector. If you measure 12 volts DC then you have a DC powered CDI.
2) If you don't measure 12 volts DC on the ignition power pin, then switch the meter over to measure AC volts on the 200 volt scale. While cranking the starter motor, measure the AC voltage on the "AC Ignition Power" pin to the the Ground pin. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC. If you measure AC voltage when the starter is turning then you have an AC powered CDI.
Using a meter is the only 100% reliable way to figure out if your CDI is AC or DC powered. But there are some clues you can use that are usually (but not always) correct:
A) DC CDIs tend to be a little larger than their AC powered counterpart. This is because the DC powered CDI needs a bunch more circuitry to convert the 12 volts DC to the moderately high voltage supply that CDIs must have.
B) Most (but not all) DC powered quad ignition systems do not use the kill switch input pin. The cDI connector pin usually has no wire tied to it. AC powered quad ignition systems usually do use the kill switch input pin.
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07-01-2011, 05:17 PM
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