HondaR24,
What am I talking about?

Comparing the forces on a transmission from a mud bogging ATV to a sport quad is what I was getting at.
HP levels alone don't kill them. It's when that HP finds the weak link,...and it is supose to be your tires.
Goes for everything, including the automobiles you mentioned.
I've seen these come in for years,..a manual transmission in a big bore ATV would have to be seriously over engineered compared to what everyone has been using.
Ever wonder why at a rock crawling event, most mechanical DNFs are transmissions?
I totally get what you were saying, and I agree to a point. But my experience is my opinion. And it's no coincidence that these are almost always 500cc class machines.

 

Well there is one atv made over 500cc with a gear on gear transmission, the Rincon and although it's not a powerhouse, it still is heavier and a lot more powerful than a foreman. Hell there is a guy on the honda forum with a 2003 honda rincon Lifted with gorilla axles and 32 inch outlaw 2s. He also has quite a bit of engine work done to it yet he is still on his Og trans. He has broken a **** load of CV joints but what do you expect running one of the heaviest tires in there largest size? My experience leads me to believe that axles and differentials are usually the weak link and give well before a gear in the trans will. Can am could easily make a 1000cc outlander with the same type of trans as a honda but it would cost more money to produce. Sure they would have to beef it up a bit to handle the HP but that could be said about anything. You don't think a ds250 uses the same strength clutching and drive belt as a renegade right?

 

Well to answer the original question; I am very interested in the new Rubicon. I especially like the combination of manual shift with independent rear suspension and power steering. Seems to be the first ATV with that combination of features. I am looking forward to when the dealers get them in stock.

 

My thoughts exactly!

 

I held off buying to look at one. Some people don't get that people have different preferences for things. My uses are work only, no "goofing off". The ability to select gears and have an automatic too is MUCH preferable. Being able to push on the gas for power and not have the atv decide on it's own to go faster makes certain tasks much easier, and much easier and/or less tiring to maintain a certain speed (say spraying a pasture for instance, or dragging things around). Also, the argument that Honda engines are lower horsepower and therefore behind the times and inferior is tiring. They are lower revving and make good torque. Might even be a bit more fuel efficient while doing the work (?). In other words, they work just fine. For work my preference is lower revving, not a feeling I'm riding some random snowmobile. Just driving down a road going up a hill at 20mph and the motor revving like you are doing 50 doesn't feel right, and would get tiring after all day. Racing only, then HP might matter. Some people can't seem to stop bashing away at the only different atv manufacturer because it doesn't suit "their" use. Me, I like choice. Me, I don't understand why if something doesn't suit their use, but goes after a different target market, why not just move on? When every other manufacturer basically produces very similar machines, it's nice to have something different. CVT vs. manual trans.? So what, BOTH are reliable.

Manual trans. are very reliable, Foreman is likely the number one atv around here, and I've never heard of many major issues. I have a couple three wheelers from the mid 80s, 200 and 250 big reds, both used well beyond rated capacity for many years, no issues at all with the trans. But, most people here are like me, they use the atv for work. The factory tires are good enough, no reason to mod the atv etc., they hold up just fine as is, so that's good enough.

 

Its the first with that combo only due to their are not many 5 speeds 4wd anymore.


Their have been many with the IRS and Power steering though in the last few years though.

The Rincon 680 is the largest ATV without CVT yet it does not break 40hp. That's the power of the new mid bore 550s now.

OHC can rev higher then OHV but at low speeds they do not rev higher, they just can rev higher if you decide to gas it while OHV do not give you the choice.
Honda is the last with OHV while most others are moving from SOHC to DOHC now.

Honda sure does not use OHV on there Motorcycles , cars and Sporty ATVs, only on their Utility ATVs and lawnmowers.




My 500 Sportsman in low range sure can out pull my friends 500 Foreman for work. But once in high range I can also fly down some straight dirt road at a faster clip then he can.
CVT and 100lbs heavier.

The new Can-Am (38hp) 450 Outlander 4x4 has almost the same hp as the (39hp) 680 Rincon. Just to show how Honda is falling back.

 

You keep quoting horsepower to me and others, but you fail to see that I see it differently than you, as do other people. Means absolutely nothing to me without seeing the whole picture. It's not all about the numbers either, the whole thing. Too extreme of an example, but here it is. Your snowmobile is 165HP, my biggest tractor is probably around 120-130 engine HP (I only know the HP at the power output shaft so I'm guessing on that number but it should be close). I can hook up to my 6k lb hay mover and load up over 15k lbs of hay and pull it down the road with relative ease. Now, lets say it were possible to put your snowmobile engine in my 12k lb. tractor and connect it to the same 16 speed transmission, would it do the same work, just as reliably, just as practically? HP is not the end all/be all for work.

So, more horspower? Is there a comparison chart or data somewhere that shows the power curves of these engines? What HP is produced at what RPM? How about torque on the low end (the main factor that's important to me)?

Now, actual practical comparison. Rincon is out, because that transmission is made for going down the road and not towing (it can be used for that, but it's not ideal). You mention the Can am 450 and then the Foreman compared to your Polaris. Lets say you were fixing fence, Can am and Foreman have a 600lb trailer on them. Over the next several days you'll be spending a few hours a day, lots of stop and go, lucky to hit 5 mph, maybe 10 on the smooth spots going out there. Which would perform "better"? Same/similar? Which would do so quieter? Less maintenance? Factors you don't care about? Some do.

I'm not saying the Hondas are "better", and that Polaris can't pull or anything like that, they just perform/act completely different. Just saying I'm not racing and couldn't care less about the HP or 0-60 performance. Only modern atv I've driven is the '12 700 Grizzly I spent time on (a person doesn't just ask to ride someone else's stuff for work, you just ask them if they get along ok with it). The way the engine ran, with the transmission, I'd pick my old 250 Honda for putting around the yard ANY day if I had a choice, let alone something with a bigger engine and similar trans. option. That thing would pull anything I wanted, so a 500 sure would too. Any "extra" power is useless if not needed or utilized.

Not angry or trying to cause problems, I just don't get why someone can't acknowledge that people have different opinions and uses for something.

 

Sort of review (not too in depth or criticizing).

2015 Honda Foreman Rubicon Review

 

Im with TLC 100% and have been saving cash since 2006 when they last refreshed the Rubicon in hopes of a 600-700CC TRX700XX engine Rubicon II with all the features of the 2015 while keeping the hondamatic and keeping the dual range transmission..... but they didn't so im keeping my mint 2001 and using the cash I had saved on a Kubota tractor... the fact that the forest service has made everywhere closed unless in a ORV park didn't help my decision any either

 

That's one of the differences there, you guys may work with them, but most of you it seems play with them more, so you want something that goes fast. Not true here. There are no atv parks except maybe by bigger cities. I live in ranch country, 15 miles to a one register grocery store, 30 for clothing, 65 for Walmart. Mine is on the small side for the area, around 900 acres. ATVs are handy to drive around and do stuff a little quicker than tractors/pickups. And they let us drive them down the gravel roads without issue (I believe they aren't supposed to be on the road, but the cops don't care, they very rarely drive by but I've passed by them on the road without issue). They know we drive between our properties to do stuff so it isn't an issue, agriculture drives the state, and most of us know the cops anyway. But they are considered just a tool, people are on them every day, checking cows, pivots, fencing, spraying weeds, etc. Hard to get excited about the daily driver, when a person treats it like a piece of equipment and depends on it to start every day. And if a person did ride like that, there are trails all over the place on and between people's land, and I have 1000s of trees just on my property, it is like a forest in a couple places, so there isn't much difference. Maintenance is a big deal too, most people have at least a couple tractors, equipment, vehicles. One more thing requiring this or that tweaked when a person doesn't have a lot of free time is not desirable. I don't know how many miles I used to drive with my Hondas, but on a slow day 10 miles would be a good guess. Many, many years without touching a thing on them except on the last years. So I'm finding I lean toward Honda. Plus the whole automatic thing but still being able to choose a gear, that is getting to be a deal breaker right there the more I think about it. So I will see. Aside from the rear brake, not much I don't like on the old model either, rides good enough I'm sure. Depends what I see. But the dealers around don't want to go far off of retail, so I will take the prices into consideration too, may have to settle on something I don't care for that much.

Off topic more: Kubotas are good tractors. Never been around small ones if that's what you are getting, but I know some of the skid loaders around have their engines in them. One neighbor had a bigger one. Very reliable. When I was tractor shopping, not too many around, and at least $50k for the size I use, pretty much similar to Deere $ around here, except not as many hours and newer. Most people buy Deere, dealer is only 30 miles away and if a person doesn't have time to fix it yourself, the local mechs. will be more likely to work on them. You have to go to about 35 years old to get something cheaper that size to around $25k. That's where I shopped last time, because I'm not a farmer and don't need newer stuff running 24x7 like they do. Kind of difficult to find one that "cheap" around here, most dealers only have new sitting on the lot. None of my Deere's break down that often, but it happens as you get higher hours especially.