This is not an attempt to start a flame war!
OK, These are the 2 bikes that I have narrowed my choices down to.
Raptor: quick revving, responsive. Everyone has one.
DS650 (BAJA): soft start, stable, getting popular.
I have done all the reading. What I want is honest feed back from people whom either own one of these orhave ridden them and have good knowledge.
From what I gather the DS650 is actually more powerful (higher HP and torque) and faster (topend) but it's also heavier.
The raptor is quicker and more responsive on turns.
Any help is appreciated.
Also Who is Knutz? Own a shop in Las Vegas? Sell DS650. What.

 

Hello Sandshack,

I own Knutz Concepts and we are the only builders in the country of the Team Pami big CC motors for the DS. It's a DS exclusive shop, that not only builds the motors, but also researches and developes many new parts for the DS chassis and cosmetics.

Since my business is 99% mail order, we do not have a public store front of our own, but share with Sandtech Racing for local business. If you get yourself a DS, I'd love to help you make it scream. If you chose a Raptor, Sandtech can take care of your HP needs.

Sandtech Racing-(702)491-0282
Knutz Concepts-(702)236-6852

Sandtech is in the proccess of becoming a Bombardier dealer.

 

SandShack,

I rode a nearly stock Raptor prior to buying my DS with no pre-ownership ride time. At the time I rode the Raptor, I was used to my LT250R and the Raptor felt good - sorta. Peppy, but it felt like it was going to tip over the whole time and it made me nervous more than anything (I was also riding a friends BRAND NEW Toy eeeeek!) When the DS650 came out, it was almost exactly what I'd hoped for: a durable/reliable, powerful, stable platform to ride. Since the Raptor turned out to be what I didn't want, (when I heard the Raptor was more narrow than the 400EX, I just about fell over, until that point, I was starting to consider it as I read/heard more about it) and nothing else came close my decision was pretty much made at that point (and I bought a 'normal' 2001 DS.) Take into account all of the cool stuff the Baja DS has, and it'd make the choice that much easier (for me.)

What kind of riding do you do? Are you a smaller or bigger sized person? Anyone who is 6' or over tends to feel better on the DS, and even some smaller people have been known to like it as well. How much work do you plan to do to your machine before it's 'perfect'? For me, the fact I didn't want a narrow ATV, and the extra $2000+ in parts alone to make the Raptor into the type of machine I wanted didn't make much sense. (Though, I must say I REALLY like the paint on the chassis of the Blue Raptor, it matches my truck almost perfectly.)

Knutz is the proprietor of Knutz Concepts of Las Vegas, NV. He is an importer/engine builder using the Team Pami engine kits. Right now I'm pretty sure he is only selling engine kits and other cool accessories, but in the future there are rumors he will be involved with selling brand new modified DS650s so you can pick up a DS703, 760 or 830 and already have the work done to it. That way, you can rip your arms out of the sockets from the moment you get home or to the local riding area.

 

I will just add a few things.

I have both a 2001 raptor and a 2002 DS 650 Baja. I bought the raptor in July of last year, well because that is what everyone seemed to think was the best quad out at the time. Everyone I talked to said the DS was a tank, but they did not have one either.

Anyway, I was pretty satisfied with the raptor, it is kind of tippy, but once you learn to ride it, it is a fast quad. It is fun, it lifts the front like nothing else and has enough power to really enjoy. However the first time in the dunes with the raptor left me wanting more. The gearing was way off for duning. The suspension leaves something to be desired. I understand they fixed the gearing issue with the 2002 model, but they should never have released it with the gearing it had. I wonder if any of their engineers ever rode the thing and if so I wonder if they ever took it in the sand. Anyway, it is a nice quad and can run really good. It is lighter, smaller and it feels like it.

Now, on to the DS. This was probably the hardest decision I had to make in a while. I had one shot, because I could pass the raptor to the wife and get one more quad, but if I messed up I was pretty much stuck with it.

I did a lot of research, I used to have a 93 banshee and I had left the sport for a few years and was now getting back into it. At the dunes, most people know that the 2 strokes kind of rule the sand. That is becoming harder for them, but for the moment I say they still have an advantage. So, I was torn between the banshee and the DS.

I had sat on a baja model DS and really like the feel of it, it has that solid strong built kind of overpowering feel to it. I went and sat on a banshee and that pretty much made up my mind. It felt like well it was to small. So, I decided that the DS fit me better and felt much more comfortable and from what I had read on these forums, it had a lot of nice features that I wanted.

I bought one, and did a few break in rides, with cool downs and the such. Anyway, when I finally got a chance to take it to the dunes, I was very impressed. I don't think the smile has left my face since. It runs great. It pulls hard and will do everything I threw at it.

This is by far the best quad made in my opinion. I would sell the raptor and buy another today, but I need to let the wife decide, she is smaller and has said that she likes the raptor.

My opinion is that if you are riding real tight trails, and plan on doing motorcross or something like that then the raptor may indeed be the better bike.

If you plan on riding desert areas and dunes, the DS has the market for that. It is the quad and will not let you down. That is the kind of riding I do and I have yet to be disapointed.

My only complaints with the DS Baja are:

1. the rev limiter is still to low.
2. the powerband in stock form, is lacking on the bottom end.

I am in the process of fixing both of these. I did a big gun exhaust and dynojetted the carb and that fixed the low end problem, now I am going to do the cdi and get rid of that rev limiter.

In conclusion, I would say if you can ride both do it. They are very different quads and have different feels all around. I did not have the opportunity to ride both, so I went with how I felt and my second choice was on the money.

Bat

 

Sandshack, where you located? I live over by Lake Las Vegas. If you'd like to put some seat time in on a DS let me know, I'd be happy to let you ride mine. I'll admit it's not stock anymor, so it won't be a true test as far as power goes but the suspension is still stock.

 

.......First off the front shocks on the Raptor are only slightly better than the crappy front shocks on the DS. I ride mountain trails, fast, and it is pretty rough. Most Raptors and DS's are running stock shocks, the back is okay on both, but Works or better front shocks will make a believer out of you.
...... My son has a Raptor and I have a DS. We compare them constantly. I love my DS, he loves his Raptor. Neither one of us would switch for anything. We both feel we have the ultimate quads. I weigh in at 210#, he is 90# dripping wet. He is 13 and pretty much kicking my *** these days. I notice you live in Nevada. Unless you are a little guy, you are going to like the DS better. The Baja is the ultimate desert sled. But you will still need a pipe to broaden the powerband, a CDI to raise the rev limit, front shocks, 22" rear tires, XCT's or Razrs, (23" in front are nice too) I also have the TimmyBoy upper A-arms, which really helps the handling and stability, but so far everyone seems to think the new wheel set up on the Baja has that covered.
..... On the other hand if you are into MX you might like a tricked out Raptor better, A-arms and the whole bit. At that point you might be better off with a Cannondale. Unless you live in the woods the Raptor needs a wider rear axle, Durablue or better.
......We have about $1500 in mods on both. We have stock engines with only HMF slip-on Quiet-Cores, I have a K&N, and we cleaned out his airbox.
A pro-flow set-up would be good too, and he may get A-arms by summer.
.......These quads are now both nicely refined. They are both very different from when we first brought them home. My first ride out in the mountains on my DS was a huge dissapointment. I was ready to sell it. Mine had an especially stiff pair of front shocks, which seems to vary quite a bit from DS to DS. Some are better, but they all suck. Too much rebound dampening causes the shocks to "pack up" not allowing them to recover after repeated hits. That puts you into the higher spring rate, and beats your arms to death.
........Both have proven reliable. The fan went out on the DS, and I do keep my fingers crossed on the Raptor tranny issue, even though we got a very late 2001. Oh, and reverse on the Raptor is a joke. When you really need it, the gear ratio is so high as to render it useless.

 

Sandshack, I rode Vegas 650's 703 the other day he lives by you somewhere, we did desert trail riding, if I lived out there the choice would be the ds. I also rode his 450 ex which was nice but the ds is a much more comfortable ride. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

 

In my opinion it boils down to the type of riding you're going to do and your stature. I'm 5'11" 225lbs. and the DS feel's huge to me. I felt I had much more control on my raptor and was able to flick it around easier. The DS is a better built quad than a raptor, I feel, but the only problem I had with my raptor is a bent axle. I raced some mx on my raptor and the only time I felt I had a disadvantage was in the whoops. I couldn't even imagine riding a DS on an mx track, but that's not it's element. Wide open areas and dunes is where this machine shine's.
I installed a Durablue +5 axle and offset front wheels on my raptor and this made a dramatic difference. These were the best mods I made to my raptor. I do 95% of my riding in the dunes and it felt extremely stable. The raptor is an awesome dune machine with these mod's.
I think which ever quad you decide to purchase you won't go wrong with either one. The motors are about equal in horsepower but the size of the machines is the biggest difference. Choose which fit's you best and keep in mind the type of riding you are going to do.
I have a new Suzuki on order and I have my fingers crossed that it will have the handling of a 400ex and the power of a DS or raptor. That would be the best of both worlds to me.

 

I will add that the both machines can be made to do what you need. My experience is by just widening the Raptor out and letting it breath, it is a much better machine then when it rolls off the showroom. It jumps well and is nuetral in the air. A DS was just to big for me of 180lbs. I rode one and it was set up all wrong, so I don't have an opinion on a DS. The Raptor does lift the front end, but that can be controlled very easy. I, like my brother buddah am not brand loyal as you can see our sigs. The Raptor is an good dune machine stock and an excellent dune machine when you do the above mods and you won't go broke doing it.

 

Buddah,

When you get the Zuki, be sure and let me know. I don't think it sounds like anything tremendously groundbreaking, but some more competition in the sport sector and just the fact it's a Suzuki (I used to own a LT250R) make me curious as to how it'll perform next to everything else. I've already heard rumors that in stock trim it's more like a 440EX, than a 400EX that sounds to me like a strong selling point.