I`m Designing a new ATV Trike Concept: looking for an Advisor
 

Hey all, my name is Alexei, I'm an industrial design student in my final 4th year at Humber College, I’m working on my thesis project in developing a new ATV Trike concept vehicle. In order to generate a concrete end user research and feedback, I'm looking for an advisor in the field of ATV enthusiast who can share some insight thought on their experience with using and riding ATV vehicles. I can only pick one advisor, this opportunity will let you over see a design process of a new concept atv vehicle with your input and experience taken into consideration for the final design. You will have an overview of the complete design progress, you will be presented sketches and renderings of the concept for feedback and opinion, you will witness a build-up progress of a physical 1/5th scale concept model for display in the thesis show, and with a chance to see it in person if you’re a local Torontonian ;)

Concept preview:
http://www.amv-design.com/download/trakrok.jpg

Project Description:

TrakRok vehicle is a Modular Off-road Terrain Mobility unit. Powered by sustainable renewable energy, the vehicle is composed of a modular assembly construction, utilizes a segmental detachment options for reliability and safety. The motorized track unit, allows detachments into secondary compact mobile means of transportation, for terrain of restricted scale with narrow pathways. With these innovative applications, the target market industry can cover a range of focus from Military, Farming, Construction, Off-roading and personal sport leisure.

If your interested to participate as an advisor contact me at: alexei@amv-design.com

My website: AMV-Design Studio

Well- I don't know what kind of "renewable energy" you're referring to :huh:, but you'll need a lot of it if you plan on moving a track drive and a front locking differential (assuming it's an AWD unit :confused:) to obtain any kind of decent traction. There's plenty of atv's with gas or diesel powerplants utilizing tracks- and giving your concept a look- it appears about as heavy as a military tank, you'll probably need a 3 cylinder diesel to move it.

Not sure how "modular assembly construction" and "a segmental detachment options" have any effect on reliability and safety. Reliability comes down to the quality of parts used and construction of the vehicle as a whole unit- and safety is another issue altogether taking into account the machines usability.

I can tell you one thing- tracks aren't know for nimbleness, and the unit would have to be no wider then the largest atv to make it a competitive vehicle in the trails, woods or tight terrain.

"The motorized track unit, allows detachments into secondary compact mobile means of transportation, for terrain of restricted scale with narrow pathways."

not even sure what that means :confused: but regardless- you appear to have two front tires on the unit- if you're implying that the atv is somewhat like the bat mobile and transforms into a motorcycle from your concept atv- it's no longer stable- as you really cant wind through tight trails and "narrow pathways" on a long vehicle over rocky dirt terrain via a single track drive- it would tip over too easy. Especially since you'd have to narrow the front to be the same as the rear.

I'd say you need to talk to a Can-Am engineer- since they build some of the worlds best sleds and atv's; I'm sure they have thought of it all in terms of practicality and usability... :twocents:

beergut - Thanks for the input and feedback, i appreciate that you pointed out some of the flaws in the design and function.

So, an update on the design progress so far, I've done some extensive work in exploring the modular detachment system, and the overall atv look. Let me know what you guys think so far, and the things you'd like changed. I'm still looking for an advisor, who'd be interested to take part in my thesis degree project, anyone interested pm me, or contact me at alexei@amv-design.com

Concept development:
http://www.amv-design.com/images/trakrok-sketch.jpghttp://www.amv-design.com/images/trakrok-sketch2.jpg

A couple of observations I have.

1. The front wheels appear to have some sort of off-center wheel device. I have seen this in movies, but never real life. Keep in mind that ATV's have to take lots of abuse. Is this type of wheel design going to be able to handle climbing over logs? How about being submerged? Is a small rock getting stuck in the wheel area going to destroy the entire wheel.

2. Also related to the front wheels, with the "axles" being on the bottom of the wheel, that is severely limiting ground clearance. If you were to put them on top, I would think it would add ground clearance over the standard center hub design, but it would also make the entire design very fragile, imo.

3. It appears you are going to be using some sort of fuel cell technology. How is this going to be refueled. Keep in mind that lots of people that ride atv's, ride in more rural areas where this type of technology will be integrated at a much later date than in an urban area. what about when people take a week long trip somewhere.

4. I see no storage area or racks for holding any type of supplies. At a minumum, it should have a small compartment for holding a bottle of water and a small tool kit.

5. The fuel cell in your picture shows it is attached to the main body. Once the back half of it is detached, is there an alternate fuel cell for it to run on?

6. It looks like there is very little weight over the back half. Since this is where the tracks are, I am assuming that is where the main drive unit is. Without more weight on the back, you may find yourself getting stuck.

7. Skinny tires are not a good idea for a quad. Fat tires and tracks are good for floating over stuff like mud and snow. Thin tires will sink in quick.

8. On your separated track unit, From what I am seeign and know about mechanical design, the rider when standing will be at least 2' off the ground. This will mean the average rider will be 8' when standing on a platform that appears to be about 2 1/2' wire and about 3' long. This will make for a very unstable platform for all but the most skilled riders.

9. You should put some type of fenders over the front wheels or else you will have all sorts of debris thrown at the rider.

10. A trike style design will most likely be very unstable when negotiating steep terrain. If one of the front wheels is off-camber, the entire thing could easily flip over backwards, crushing the rider and opening the company for lawsuits. I am pretty sure this is the reason Honda abandoned the three wheeler design many years ago.

Good luck with your project. Hopefully my input will help you out some.

it's like you're trying to combine a sled, jet ski, dirtbike and atv into one unit-
Problem is- each of those have been engineered / tuned specifically for the terrain its intended to be ridden on.

How would you provide power to the mobile units electric tracks?
To get any kind of usable torque from an electric motor- it would be huge & heavy, and require gobs of electricity. The mobile unit alone would
weigh over 1000 lbs and be quite bulky- not to mention the ride time (or lack there of) you'd get from powering two large electric motors.

Thank you for all the feedback, it's been very helpful - One thing i'd like to state that the basis of the project is pure conceptual design with a functional purpose, I'm not actually developing a working prototype, my thesis is based on presenting a new idea and implementing it in various scenarios and probable solutions in a near future.

beergut- Conceptually both the main atv trike unit and the mobile track system would have their own power source, advances in electric motors and fuel-cell battery technology escalates by two fold every year, the size of motors and batteries gets smaller while out put in power becomes greater... conceptually the environment where this vehicle will exist, batteries will be portable and powerful enough to offer maximum performance that's equivalent to todays combustion motors.

The portable track unit concept of my thesis is actually based on a working prototype i help develop with a company called BPG-Werks, it doesn't weight 1000lb, more or so around 300lb give or take, It's called the DTV Shredder with a power out put of 16hp using the gx200 honda motor, the development so far looks promising with future plans for a more powerful version of 50+hp.

Heres a video of the Shredder: YouTube - DTV Shredder ~ Clip for Military Show

I appreciate all any feedback you have, feel free to offer your opinions...i'll keep the content updated as the thesis progresses further.

In regards to electric vs. fossil fuel usability- while electric motors may be more efficient at converting watts into mechanical movement (75% compared to a gas / diesel motor's 25-40%), it is impractical (and will be for a long long long time.)

To say "advances in electric motors and fuel-cell battery technology escalates by two fold every year" is a nice average, but to assume it literally is really overstating the technology. Fact is, there is no electric motor currently made (not even close), that can match the power output and weight class of an internal combustion engine (gas or diesel)- likewise, one can also assume that advances in the internal combustion engine (efficiency and application) also continue to advance on a similar (if not more aggressive) curve.

Case in point- you can have a small 2 cylinder gasoline engine connected to a traditional gear transmission or cvt that can weigh as little as 100 lbs (mounted in a 600lb vehicle) and pump out over 100 hp with over 110 ft /lbs of torque at only 4500 rpm- and be capable of traveling (with 300 lbs. combined passenger & gear) over some of the most extreme terrain for periods up to or beyond 6 hours on 4 gallons of gas. (1:6 approx power to weight ratio)
One gallon of gas = 8.6 lbs, so, for real world practicality, you'd need a fuel cell that weighs less than 34.6 lbs (4 gallons of gas) that is capable of producing enough watts to power an 80 - 100 hp electric motor (mounted in a 600lb vehicle) for 6 hours over rough terrain on a single charge! Unless we've perfected cold fusion- the reality of a battery possessing / providing equivalent energy as that of an internal combustion engine is at a minimum, centuries away.

Likewise, to tap this amount of power from an electric motor for an extended period of time would require an extremely heavy motor, battery pack and controllers weighing hundreds & hundreds of pounds. Not to mention proprietary charging stations that would need to be shipped in advance or carried with the unit. Or, one would need to carry a “spare” battery pack while the primary one is recharging.

Also- would like to point out... gasoline motors produce heat while "making" this very usable power. This heat is an unavoidable byproduct that can be easily harnessed to provide comfort features. The heat can be managed by a small mechanical pump / radiator located within the engine itself, that is being powered by the exact machine creating the energy. In addition, the very fuel powering the engine can also be a useful tool at controlling the engine heat / friction- whereas the heat from an electric motor and onboard batteries would need to be managed separately- lessening the overall efficiency of an electric motor design. One would surely assume that any cell capable of producing power at this level will heat up. Hell, the 12 volt li-ion in my drill gets uncomfortably hot in the few minutes I use it to build a shelf.

If the criterion is simply a “pure conceptual design with a functional purpose” then why not just design a vehicle that uses nuclear fission as a fuel source, or go even further and design a drive train under the principles of quantum mechanics and anti-particles to create an anti-gravity atv?

By the time science has developed a way to make fuel cells more efficient at moving a vehicle equipped with an internal combustion engine- you won’t be considering “tracks” or tires with inefficient suspensions that touch the ground or some bi-purpose transformer / atv…

I think this design has too many moving parts which is anti-efficient an is not considering current or near current technology as an acceptable energy source- be it fossil fuel or battery.

That being said- I really like your shredder concept, I would invest in it or like to be part of it. I think you should focus at polishing that up with key points on balance and maneuverability- and forget about making it electric for now. Investors would rather see a polished Shredder using a proven & stable gas / diesel prototype then an unreliable electric one. Get a rotax powerplant right in that chassis and you'd be unstoppable on that thing!
I used to built / design untrasound units that looked similar to that thing! :D

They made fun of the Wright Bro's but that didn't stop them,go for it!!

Who's making fun?
Looks like an interesting technical discussion to me.
No one is making fun of his idea. :confused:


I also need to correct a statement I made above in a previous response...
"you'd need a fuel cell that weighs less than 34.6 lbs (4 gallons of gas) that is capable of producing enough watts to power an 80 - 100 hp electric motor"

I forgot while responding above- that electric motors are more efficient and I think the gas / electric ratio is somewhere around 1:3 or 1:4- something like that.
So, to do the work of an 80hp gas engine, you'd probably need the an electric motor rated at only around 20 - 30 hp. Which is very doable- but you'll still need to work around those battery issues.

This is a neat concept- I have some energy ideas I'll pm you trakrock~

Sorry Beergut I was only giving him support , not slamming your comments! Friends? Kool! I love different ideas!:nod: anyone know how to center my pages on this site?