Best Honda ATV
#71
04-07-2013, 01:12 PM
Your wrong on that one. Most ATVs motor like the Sportsmans 500,700, Brute force,KQ 700 and Rincon started with carbs and where switch over to throttle body later on ,they never changes the motor itself just its fuel delivery set up.
So not a EFI does not warm up motor oil any quicker.
So not a EFI does not warm up motor oil any quicker.
it actually does, tlc
the way an engine burns fuel has a great impact on how it warms up.
cold engines running carbs take a bit longer to properly atomize the fuel mixture as it flows through the cold intake system- efi systems remove this by atomizing the fuel through the injector. pressure in the efi injector aspirates & atomizes the fuel so it's ready for efficient combustion- whereas carburetors can't atomize fuel as well using a vacuum- especially a carb feeding fuel droplets into a cold intake. It takes a few minutes for the engine to warm up before the carburetor air / fuel mixture is properly atomized through a heated engine and ready for efficient combustion.
more importantly- even more so than "viscosity" is oil "adhesion"- which is what will save a cold engine from wear damage on startup. Older oils from yesterday didn't have the adhesion properties that today's oils have- so 30-40 years ago, it was necessary to allow time for engines to warm up the intake to properly atomize fuel, and warm the oil for better flow to lube all points... but with todays oils (with better adhesion properties) and efi systems- engines are basically ready to go within seconds of starting, not minutes.
a lot of people are just not aware of all the little intricacies efi offers over carbs- for some reason, some people are just hell-bent on accepting something new and still have an "old-school" view on engine principals.
a lot has changed, and antiquated principals handed down from grandfathers who were savvy mechanics in their day- are no longer valid in today's modern engine.
#72
04-07-2013, 03:53 PM
Sorry I have followed the current post in this Thread and beergut ur right I deal with oil on a daily basis every where from crude to refined petroleum i also test it daily for contamination water vescosity ect ect. Only thing I do not understand weather it being EFI or carb why would this make a engine warm up faster me understanding the concepts of engines an wrenching almost my entire life I know that a carb is not as effecient as EFI and that throttle response starting in cold weather EFI is awesome but a properly tuned and clean carb is cheaper simple and adjustable but still when I crank up my or my sons quad I give it a second then we go only way I see a EFI warming up faster is if your use to a bike with the carb out of adjustment or dirty
#73
04-07-2013, 04:02 PM
Sorry beergut u answered my question earlier thanks and you have a valid point nice to see you used to work for Detroit diesels I have worked on countless 671, 871 and 1271 the maritime industry is soaked with them and you can't kill them if they don't leak oil it's cause there out or not running
#74
04-08-2013, 03:06 PM
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Couldn't respectfully disagree more.
I can't even count how many dirtbikes, atv's and small engines I've owned & serviced with both EFI & carb fuel systems over the last 20 years.
EFI has a huge advantage in so many aspects-in cold weather starting and mud / water terrain.
My fil has a new Polaris Hawkeye with a carb- started it a couple weeks ago, I had to wait 3 minutes for the thing to warm up before giving it full throttle.
my EFI Rotax is immediate start and full power in *10 weather within a couple of seconds- you'll never see a carb do that- no matter how well it's tuned.
It's a moot argument- EFI is superior in every aspect- it's not even worth debating.
Some people just like their carb's- which is fine, but the carb vs efi debate is a silly one- almost as silly as power steering vs no power steering.
I can't even count how many dirtbikes, atv's and small engines I've owned & serviced with both EFI & carb fuel systems over the last 20 years.
EFI has a huge advantage in so many aspects-in cold weather starting and mud / water terrain.
My fil has a new Polaris Hawkeye with a carb- started it a couple weeks ago, I had to wait 3 minutes for the thing to warm up before giving it full throttle.
my EFI Rotax is immediate start and full power in *10 weather within a couple of seconds- you'll never see a carb do that- no matter how well it's tuned.
It's a moot argument- EFI is superior in every aspect- it's not even worth debating.
Some people just like their carb's- which is fine, but the carb vs efi debate is a silly one- almost as silly as power steering vs no power steering.
WOT after a 'cold start' in 10 degree weather ..... no thanks.
Efi is obviously good for you, and I'm extremely happy for you.
Efi isn't the only good fuel system on an ATV .....
#76
04-08-2013, 06:36 PM
yes it is- it's the best choice for an atv (or any other) engine.
you can choose to ignore the data, the technology and fuel delivery evolution- but
there's only one "best way" and efi will match and out perform a carb any day on any engine given the same conditions.
you'll see. you'll learn someday.
exactly!
you can choose to ignore the data, the technology and fuel delivery evolution- but
there's only one "best way" and efi will match and out perform a carb any day on any engine given the same conditions.
you'll see. you'll learn someday.
exactly!
#77
04-10-2013, 02:58 AM
spoken like a true ignoramus-
I state my point and will debate my point of view to anyone who wants to have an intelligent discussion on the subject.
what I see in this thread, is what I run across when I hear most people discuss efi vs carb motors- a lack of knowledge and a mediocre understanding on 4-stroke principals. I have a secondary education in auto / diesel mechanics and have owned & built dozens of engines over the last 20 years on a personal & professional level.
I was employed by Detroit Diesel for many years to rebuild diesel / gasoline engines and have spent countless hands-on hours with master technicians specifically on this subject alone. I even spent 5 months with R&D running engines in environmental testing chambers where engines were run to extreme temps on both ends of the scale, vibrated for days on end and then run with gasoline blends until they failed.
go read a few college level books (not magazines) on auto mechanics, fuel atomization, fuel injection and carburetor systems, purpose & principals on choke / enrichener circuits and engine lubrication- then I'll discuss my position on efi a bit more.
I know what I know- and offer advice based on what I've been taught and experienced by people much smarter then "did you step in something" or you- Got something to teach me? then state your facts, explain your theory and why it's better- disprove what I've been taught and then maybe I'll digress and consider your points- until then, you're just a big mouth.
I state my point and will debate my point of view to anyone who wants to have an intelligent discussion on the subject.
what I see in this thread, is what I run across when I hear most people discuss efi vs carb motors- a lack of knowledge and a mediocre understanding on 4-stroke principals. I have a secondary education in auto / diesel mechanics and have owned & built dozens of engines over the last 20 years on a personal & professional level.
I was employed by Detroit Diesel for many years to rebuild diesel / gasoline engines and have spent countless hands-on hours with master technicians specifically on this subject alone. I even spent 5 months with R&D running engines in environmental testing chambers where engines were run to extreme temps on both ends of the scale, vibrated for days on end and then run with gasoline blends until they failed.
go read a few college level books (not magazines) on auto mechanics, fuel atomization, fuel injection and carburetor systems, purpose & principals on choke / enrichener circuits and engine lubrication- then I'll discuss my position on efi a bit more.
I know what I know- and offer advice based on what I've been taught and experienced by people much smarter then "did you step in something" or you- Got something to teach me? then state your facts, explain your theory and why it's better- disprove what I've been taught and then maybe I'll digress and consider your points- until then, you're just a big mouth.
So you're educated and have hands on with engines? Awesome, me as well. I'm the type that people come to me for advice and when I give it, they don't question it. I'm publicly helpful, a quick google search would agree. Now that that our online credentials are out of the way, ya don't hammer on a cold engine period. It's stupid to do so and any "educated person" wouldn't agree to it. I have built plenty of race engines where valve springs are worked OT on aggressive cam lobes, clearances in bearings or rings may be tighter, etc. Hammering one of those cold engines can cost you said engine from a catastrophic failure. With stock engines, it STILL doesn't make sense. Tolerances between basically everything internally changes as the engine warms, and in my "educated" opinion it is better for the longevity of the engine to not beat on it until the engine AND its oil is near operating temp. EFI or carb doesn't make two ***** regarding this either.
#78
04-10-2013, 03:13 AM
yes it is- it's the best choice for an atv (or any other) engine.
you can choose to ignore the data, the technology and fuel delivery evolution- but
there's only one "best way" and efi will match and out perform a carb any day on any engine given the same conditions.
you'll see. you'll learn someday.
you can choose to ignore the data, the technology and fuel delivery evolution- but
there's only one "best way" and efi will match and out perform a carb any day on any engine given the same conditions.
you'll see. you'll learn someday.
Carbs have been getting it done for years. Don't try to bash them. They also make more hp to FI and that's a fact based on every single back to back dyno comparison I've seen. While the EFI motor may excel in cold start drive-ability, long term maintenance stuff, and low throttle efficiency, the horsepower AND cost king is the carb. To discretely suggest that EFI dominates in everything shows your ugly bias. Hell I don't even like carbs that much but they been getting it done for 75+ years so I give credit where credit is due.
that's a myth.
efi engine's are ready to go within seconds of starting- and the engine oil warms quicker when being ridden. efi actually allows the cold engine to start with lower rpm's, unlike choking a cold carbed engine, which instantly starts at 2500 rpm because of the choke. A cold engine sustains more wear in the first few seconds of being started than a warm engine does being run for hours. newer efi engines are designed to alleviate cold start wear.
research it
efi engine's are ready to go within seconds of starting- and the engine oil warms quicker when being ridden. efi actually allows the cold engine to start with lower rpm's, unlike choking a cold carbed engine, which instantly starts at 2500 rpm because of the choke. A cold engine sustains more wear in the first few seconds of being started than a warm engine does being run for hours. newer efi engines are designed to alleviate cold start wear.
research it
#79
04-10-2013, 07:26 AM
Well sir, as contrary to your beliefs as it can be, some people care not to argue with people who are one sided and plain wrong. Some people learn some, form an opinion, then never change or grow that opinion over time. Then preach it over and over and over until you want to slap them. That's how a lot of your advice comes off.......
So you're educated and have hands on with engines? Awesome, me as well. I'm the type that people come to me for advice and when I give it, they don't question it. I'm publicly helpful, a quick google search would agree. Now that that our online credentials are out of the way, ya don't hammer on a cold engine period. It's stupid to do so and any "educated person" wouldn't agree to it. I have built plenty of race engines where valve springs are worked OT on aggressive cam lobes, clearances in bearings or rings may be tighter, etc. Hammering one of those cold engines can cost you said engine from a catastrophic failure. With stock engines, it STILL doesn't make sense. Tolerances between basically everything internally changes as the engine warms, and in my "educated" opinion it is better for the longevity of the engine to not beat on it until the engine AND its oil is near operating temp. EFI or carb doesn't make two ***** regarding this either.
So you're educated and have hands on with engines? Awesome, me as well. I'm the type that people come to me for advice and when I give it, they don't question it. I'm publicly helpful, a quick google search would agree. Now that that our online credentials are out of the way, ya don't hammer on a cold engine period. It's stupid to do so and any "educated person" wouldn't agree to it. I have built plenty of race engines where valve springs are worked OT on aggressive cam lobes, clearances in bearings or rings may be tighter, etc. Hammering one of those cold engines can cost you said engine from a catastrophic failure. With stock engines, it STILL doesn't make sense. Tolerances between basically everything internally changes as the engine warms, and in my "educated" opinion it is better for the longevity of the engine to not beat on it until the engine AND its oil is near operating temp. EFI or carb doesn't make two ***** regarding this either.
I'd like to see a quote of where I said "hammer on a cold engine"
and yes- mr. race car engine builder (
)- EFI vs. carb does make two ***** regarding this aspect- go educate yourself on modern fuel delivery systems and petroleum properties and the role they play in cooling / warming an engine. theses are not opinions- they are facts- printed in black ink on white paper and bound in books.