got my reply from the "greens"
#1
08-22-2002, 11:17 AM
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Thank you for your message. I encourage you to read the full report and any accompanying materials on our website. I do not believe you will see any reference whatsoever that characterizes individuals and/or families who ride ATVs. In addition, the analysis accounts for growth in sales by looking at trends based on a fixed number of ATVs, in this case per 10,000 4-wheel ATVs. The conclusion is the same -- the risk of injury has increased dramatically since the early 1990s and is approaching levels from the late 1980s.
Thank you,
Scott Kovarovics
Director
Thank you,
Scott Kovarovics
Director
#2
08-22-2002, 11:56 AM
That same guy wrote me back... I'll post what he wrote to my message below:
"I urge you to read the report. The facts speak for themselves. Although I
know people would prefer to believe the problem is a figment of the
imagination, the evidence is clear and it has been compiled by independent
sources."
Thomas Rawlins wrote:
> Do NOT confuse irresponsible parenting with "dangers" of ATVing.
>
> Your organization's motives are clear and no matter how you skew facts and
> reality, one thing remains clear- YOU want to take the public land FROM THE
> PUBLIC.
"I urge you to read the report. The facts speak for themselves. Although I
know people would prefer to believe the problem is a figment of the
imagination, the evidence is clear and it has been compiled by independent
sources."
Thomas Rawlins wrote:
> Do NOT confuse irresponsible parenting with "dangers" of ATVing.
>
> Your organization's motives are clear and no matter how you skew facts and
> reality, one thing remains clear- YOU want to take the public land FROM THE
> PUBLIC.
#3
08-22-2002, 12:21 PM
I'd like to the see those statistics. Are they really on the rise? Stastics can always be manipulated to fit an argument.
Consider these statements:
"As injuries and deaths rose past 100,000 annually in the mid to late 1980s"
"Between 1982 and 2001, at least 4,541 Americans were killed while riding ATVs."
"Between 1982 and 2001, 1,714 children under age 16, including 799 under the age of 12, were killed in ATV accidents."
"Between 1993 and 2001, the number of injuries caused by ATVs more than doubled to 111,700."
"Between 1993 and 2001, the number of ATV-related injuries suffered by children under 16 increased 94% to 34,800."
OK, so we know the 80's were bad because of the 3 wheelers. In 1987 the import ban went into effect. So what happened statistically after 1987?
Why are they using data from as far back as 1982? Because it makes the argument look better.
On the other hand, they use 1993 to 2001 for injury reporting. Might this have anything to do with the dramatic increase in use?? OF COURSE, you will always have an increase in occurence when the rate of use rises.
I'd like to see the stats broken down yearly; and including purchases. We might see a different picture than what has been reported.
Consider these statements:
"As injuries and deaths rose past 100,000 annually in the mid to late 1980s"
"Between 1982 and 2001, at least 4,541 Americans were killed while riding ATVs."
"Between 1982 and 2001, 1,714 children under age 16, including 799 under the age of 12, were killed in ATV accidents."
"Between 1993 and 2001, the number of injuries caused by ATVs more than doubled to 111,700."
"Between 1993 and 2001, the number of ATV-related injuries suffered by children under 16 increased 94% to 34,800."
OK, so we know the 80's were bad because of the 3 wheelers. In 1987 the import ban went into effect. So what happened statistically after 1987?
Why are they using data from as far back as 1982? Because it makes the argument look better.
On the other hand, they use 1993 to 2001 for injury reporting. Might this have anything to do with the dramatic increase in use?? OF COURSE, you will always have an increase in occurence when the rate of use rises.
I'd like to see the stats broken down yearly; and including purchases. We might see a different picture than what has been reported.
#4
08-22-2002, 12:36 PM
awaiting my reply from the ecofanatics..by the way their site is full of incorrect info & downright scary..propaganda for sure..
here is my "comment to them"..awaiting their reply..
<<I saw your site, and as a avid Atv/Motorcyclist/Boatowner, I feel as though some of the restrictions that are in place are sufficient. There is already a recomendation that kids below the age of 16 not be allowed to ride a atv of 90 cc's or more..for one I feel that this is a bit much, a 90 cc atv is very small, and with a rider over the age of 10-11 it creates more of a problem, as it is small, the answer here is education,and PARENT involvement, not legislation, there are less restrictions on motocross bikes taht have more power, and are lighter, so while it would seem to be ok for a 10 year old to race a 80 cc bike, or the 13 year olds to run the 125's, they can not ride a atv, this seems a little skewed. the responsibility for safe riding and care of the trails, and environment comes from the parents passed down to the kids, not the goverment being legislated to the public. while there are some irrisponsible parents that will not obey the use guideline, and supervise, (read ride with, and train their kids, in a safe environment) these same parents will let their kids get hurt on bicycles, and skates. the solution is not to take away rights from the concientsious user and family that enjoys this as a outing, or the parents that support their kids in a racing setting on motocross, as these all abide with full saftey gear, helmets, riding pants, goggles, boots, gloves, jerseys, etc..there will be some in any crowd that will create a problem by not following the guidelines. I enjoy riding my atv, and would like to share the experience with my daughters, but as one is 15, and about 5'8" a 90 cc bike is terribly small for her to the point of a saftey issue, the other one is 11 and is borderline on being to big for a 90 cc class machine..before taking action, maybe a followup to a riding track, to see that this is truly a family related activity, alot of the folks that ride, have their kids & family ride as well. this is nothing diffrent than a father/son on a hunting trip, or a family fishing trip. yes there are risks, but with education, planning, EXPERIENCE, these will be at an acceptable level. the reason that some of the injuries are up, is in the last few years the motorsports atv, motorcycle sales have gone up, more people are enjoying this sport, and there has been a tremendous growth. I feel that there should be areas used for enjoyment of nature in all forms, birdwatching, hiking, rockclimbing, atv off road use, motorcycling, snowmobiling, hunting, fishing, horseback riding. this way all people can enjoy the outdoors and have a respect for it, and a tolerance for others and their ways to enjoy it.
a couple of last questions..
1) have you seen the offerings in the 90 cc class atv's?, if so have you judjed the hight of the riders as well as the weight of them?
2) have you seen what gets deliverd with a atv at the time of sale?, safe riding video, safe riding tecqniques book, literature on atv classes, and the owners manual?
3) do you realize that if a parent rides a atv, there is a very good chance that the child will ride one in a supervised manner?
4) do you realize that parents that ride atv's with their children impart a good sense of nature and RESPECT for riding areas, and others rights (property owners, other outdoor users)
5) do you realize that there is only a offering of a 50, 90, 125, 250, 300, 350, 400, 450, 500, 650, 660, 700 cc size in the atv's, the small displacement models are very limited.
6) would you rather have a pre teenager get experience on a atv in a safe supervised manner,on a proper sized atv or just turn loose a untrained 16 year old loose on whatever they want to ride?with the hope that he is responsible enough to follow legislation.
7) as far as liscensing provisions, that would help if some of the proceeds go toward riding areas, and return of stolen atv's, otherwise it is a tax that generates revenue.
8) in your area how many places are there to ride..(legally) ?
9) do you agree that the environment should be made available to ALL forms of outdoor enjoyment whether motorsport or not?
10) do you believe in conservation (the wise use of resources) instead of preservation (setting aside all use of a resource to save for a future generation)
>>
here is my "comment to them"..awaiting their reply..
<<I saw your site, and as a avid Atv/Motorcyclist/Boatowner, I feel as though some of the restrictions that are in place are sufficient. There is already a recomendation that kids below the age of 16 not be allowed to ride a atv of 90 cc's or more..for one I feel that this is a bit much, a 90 cc atv is very small, and with a rider over the age of 10-11 it creates more of a problem, as it is small, the answer here is education,and PARENT involvement, not legislation, there are less restrictions on motocross bikes taht have more power, and are lighter, so while it would seem to be ok for a 10 year old to race a 80 cc bike, or the 13 year olds to run the 125's, they can not ride a atv, this seems a little skewed. the responsibility for safe riding and care of the trails, and environment comes from the parents passed down to the kids, not the goverment being legislated to the public. while there are some irrisponsible parents that will not obey the use guideline, and supervise, (read ride with, and train their kids, in a safe environment) these same parents will let their kids get hurt on bicycles, and skates. the solution is not to take away rights from the concientsious user and family that enjoys this as a outing, or the parents that support their kids in a racing setting on motocross, as these all abide with full saftey gear, helmets, riding pants, goggles, boots, gloves, jerseys, etc..there will be some in any crowd that will create a problem by not following the guidelines. I enjoy riding my atv, and would like to share the experience with my daughters, but as one is 15, and about 5'8" a 90 cc bike is terribly small for her to the point of a saftey issue, the other one is 11 and is borderline on being to big for a 90 cc class machine..before taking action, maybe a followup to a riding track, to see that this is truly a family related activity, alot of the folks that ride, have their kids & family ride as well. this is nothing diffrent than a father/son on a hunting trip, or a family fishing trip. yes there are risks, but with education, planning, EXPERIENCE, these will be at an acceptable level. the reason that some of the injuries are up, is in the last few years the motorsports atv, motorcycle sales have gone up, more people are enjoying this sport, and there has been a tremendous growth. I feel that there should be areas used for enjoyment of nature in all forms, birdwatching, hiking, rockclimbing, atv off road use, motorcycling, snowmobiling, hunting, fishing, horseback riding. this way all people can enjoy the outdoors and have a respect for it, and a tolerance for others and their ways to enjoy it.
a couple of last questions..
1) have you seen the offerings in the 90 cc class atv's?, if so have you judjed the hight of the riders as well as the weight of them?
2) have you seen what gets deliverd with a atv at the time of sale?, safe riding video, safe riding tecqniques book, literature on atv classes, and the owners manual?
3) do you realize that if a parent rides a atv, there is a very good chance that the child will ride one in a supervised manner?
4) do you realize that parents that ride atv's with their children impart a good sense of nature and RESPECT for riding areas, and others rights (property owners, other outdoor users)
5) do you realize that there is only a offering of a 50, 90, 125, 250, 300, 350, 400, 450, 500, 650, 660, 700 cc size in the atv's, the small displacement models are very limited.
6) would you rather have a pre teenager get experience on a atv in a safe supervised manner,on a proper sized atv or just turn loose a untrained 16 year old loose on whatever they want to ride?with the hope that he is responsible enough to follow legislation.
7) as far as liscensing provisions, that would help if some of the proceeds go toward riding areas, and return of stolen atv's, otherwise it is a tax that generates revenue.
8) in your area how many places are there to ride..(legally) ?
9) do you agree that the environment should be made available to ALL forms of outdoor enjoyment whether motorsport or not?
10) do you believe in conservation (the wise use of resources) instead of preservation (setting aside all use of a resource to save for a future generation)
>>
#5
08-22-2002, 12:44 PM
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#6
08-22-2002, 01:02 PM
kev,
I've been lucky enough to be able to do things that are motorsport related, & grow VERY tired of others taking my rights away for narrow self serving adgendas, as a kid I went out to the everglades with dad in airboats, some friends had buggies & tracks, growing up I had dirtbikes, later it was a boat,, then sailboat, then motorcycles, lastly the atv, in all areas I have seen my rights get smaller..but I pass the good things along to my kids..it teaches great respect for the outdoors..along with hunting, fishing, sailing, so I know about how once you give up a little of your rights, it is just the beginning..I get a little put out when I go on the river here..back before the fuss about manatees, I could run the river on a plane, except around the bridges..now it is idle speed the whole river..takes a lot longer..but the manatees are safe..(yeah right) there are so few manatees in the river, but it was a brilliant marketing plan to increase the profit of a canoe rental place..still I feel as though something has been taken away from me..kinda like a red sticker atv in california..they just about closed all the beach access sites off, so it is getting harder to launch the hobie cat..but the jet skis are not a problem..
oh well..still have to fight for what is important..whether it is boat, atv, or bike, ...
I've been lucky enough to be able to do things that are motorsport related, & grow VERY tired of others taking my rights away for narrow self serving adgendas, as a kid I went out to the everglades with dad in airboats, some friends had buggies & tracks, growing up I had dirtbikes, later it was a boat,, then sailboat, then motorcycles, lastly the atv, in all areas I have seen my rights get smaller..but I pass the good things along to my kids..it teaches great respect for the outdoors..along with hunting, fishing, sailing, so I know about how once you give up a little of your rights, it is just the beginning..I get a little put out when I go on the river here..back before the fuss about manatees, I could run the river on a plane, except around the bridges..now it is idle speed the whole river..takes a lot longer..but the manatees are safe..(yeah right) there are so few manatees in the river, but it was a brilliant marketing plan to increase the profit of a canoe rental place..still I feel as though something has been taken away from me..kinda like a red sticker atv in california..they just about closed all the beach access sites off, so it is getting harder to launch the hobie cat..but the jet skis are not a problem..
oh well..still have to fight for what is important..whether it is boat, atv, or bike, ...
#7
08-22-2002, 01:04 PM
Trending Topics
#8
08-22-2002, 01:14 PM
it is in this thread..(page 2) atv's under attack again......along with some good comments as well.. or www.naturaltrails.org
#9
08-22-2002, 01:40 PM
Hey, maybe we'll get some new ATV trails?<grin>
Bush to Ease Logging Rules, Citing Fire Danger
The "greenies" can't be too happy about this...
Bush to Ease Logging Rules, Citing Fire Danger
The "greenies" can't be too happy about this...
#10
08-22-2002, 02:18 PM
From the article:
ATVs are Bigger, Faster and More Dangerous than Ever
The average adult-size ATV now weighs 550 pounds.
**So what is your point? Can you provide any statistical correlation between weight and injury? Or, is this just some "hollow" fact meant to scare soccor moms?
Many ATVs can travel as fast as 75 miles per hour.
**Again, what is the correlation? Can you provide ANY correlation between frequency and/or severity of injury and speed?
Injuries and Fatalities are Rising Dramatically
The risk of injury to riders of four-wheel ATVs today is nearly as great as it was when highly dangerous "three-wheelers" were banned in 1988.
**"Nearly as great" means less--despite there being tens of thousands more four wheelATV's out there today than there ever was three wheelers. I would say the statistical correlation means there are fewer injuries per owner than EVER BEFORE.
Between 1982 and 2001, at least 4,541 adults and children were killed by ATVs.
**More people died in these years from BEE STINGS. What are these ECOMANIACS doing about bees? I don't want to dismiss the seriousness of harm or death...but the fact is you could ride responsibly on a trail, and get killed driving your truck home. If we all stopped doing things that might kill us....what a boring world it would be!!!
Between 1993 and 2001, the number of injuries caused by ATVs more than doubled to 111,700.
Children Under 16 are Most at Risk
**Again, we need REAL STATISTICS and the correlation to injury/death. Otherwise, these are just arbitrary number. I would like to know how many of these were "minor", i.e. a scrape.
...and we could go on and on. These numbers are just that.
ATVs are Bigger, Faster and More Dangerous than Ever
The average adult-size ATV now weighs 550 pounds.
**So what is your point? Can you provide any statistical correlation between weight and injury? Or, is this just some "hollow" fact meant to scare soccor moms?
Many ATVs can travel as fast as 75 miles per hour.
**Again, what is the correlation? Can you provide ANY correlation between frequency and/or severity of injury and speed?
Injuries and Fatalities are Rising Dramatically
The risk of injury to riders of four-wheel ATVs today is nearly as great as it was when highly dangerous "three-wheelers" were banned in 1988.
**"Nearly as great" means less--despite there being tens of thousands more four wheelATV's out there today than there ever was three wheelers. I would say the statistical correlation means there are fewer injuries per owner than EVER BEFORE.
Between 1982 and 2001, at least 4,541 adults and children were killed by ATVs.
**More people died in these years from BEE STINGS. What are these ECOMANIACS doing about bees? I don't want to dismiss the seriousness of harm or death...but the fact is you could ride responsibly on a trail, and get killed driving your truck home. If we all stopped doing things that might kill us....what a boring world it would be!!!
Between 1993 and 2001, the number of injuries caused by ATVs more than doubled to 111,700.
Children Under 16 are Most at Risk
**Again, we need REAL STATISTICS and the correlation to injury/death. Otherwise, these are just arbitrary number. I would like to know how many of these were "minor", i.e. a scrape.
...and we could go on and on. These numbers are just that.