Has anyone tried this stuff and will it work? According to the ad you will experience,easier starting,better mileage,more power, etc. just by dropping this in your fuel tank.

 

I wouldn't recommend any automotive fuel additives. In most cases, they're not even that great an idea in the family car, let alone a high performance single.

No fuel additive can do both of these things
1. Better mileage
2. More horsepower

Think about it - it takes fuel to generate horsepower. The more fuel and engine uses, or the stronger the fuel burns, the more horsepower it has. This means more horsepower ALWAYS equals less fuel economy.

The only time this isn't true is if you have an engine that's got problems, fix the problems and the fuel economy and horsepower can go up.

If you want more power from your fuel, you'll have to do it with a higher compression engine, then run race gas or alcohol.

TANSTAFL
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Or free horsepower!

 

i agree...the fuel catalyst sounds too good to be true. i dunno though it might work. its 50 bucks though...

 

I may be mistaken on this, But if your motor can create more HP then another engine, In the same vehicle. Your fuel milage will go up at normal cruising speeds, Because the engine does not have to work as hard or rev as high. Just something to consider.

 

<< Your fuel milage will go up at normal cruising speeds, Because the engine does not have to work as hard or rev as high >>



If your engine is more efficient (i.e. tuned correctly) and another engine is less efficient (not tuned correctly), the more efficient engine will generate better hp to fuel ratios.

However, if you are testing two correctly tuned engines, which I assume we're talking about here, then in order to increase horsepower we must do one (or more) of the following:

1. Increase fuel/air intake - bigger carb, freer flowing intake tract, better porting, or different cam &amp; better porting on a four stroke.

2. Increase compression - higher compression piston, or a shaved head on a two stroke. Combusts more fuel more explosively for each ignition rotation.

3. Increase Displacement - larger bore, longer stroke.

4. Decrease excessive exhaust back-pressure - Freer flowing exhaust &amp;/or muffler.

5. More aggressive ignition, better spark - Creates a spark sooner or later (depending on if the rider is looking for torque or rpm increases) in the firing rotation.

Of these items listed, Only two MAY increase horsepower without decreasing fuel economy. An increase in compression by a couple of points normally will not decrease fuel economy. Also, changing ignition timing will typically produce different power (not necissarily more of it overall though) without a decrease in fuel economy.

Since we are not working with the family car here, but an engine which is tuned from the factory to produce quite a bit of hp per cc, then increasing performance does, in most every case, decrease fuel economy.

If you are used to working with cars or trucks, the same information does not hold true. Automobiles are required to run under much stricter guidelines, and are delivered with many restrictions which allow them to meet air quality standards. ATV's and Dirt Bikes (although they do meet standards in California) do not have to pass these requirements.

Because of this, ALL off-road vehicles manufactured in the last 15 years or so have the following in common with each other;

1. Fuel delivery - The air filter, air box velocity stack and carburetor are designed to deliver a relatively rich mixture of fuel in order to increase reliability.

2. Engine performance - The engines perform to about 60% to 90% of their peak possible right out of the crate (depends on the model and if it's a four stroke or a two stroke). Compared to your family car, which puts out about 30% to 40% of peak possible. The very newest four strokes, the YZF 426 and the YZF 250 are at almost 100% of their peak right out of the box!

3. Exhaust - Although muffled to meet or beat standards, most modern exhaust systems are designed to deliver about 85% of possible hp on four strokes, and about 75% of possible on two strokes. Four strokes released in the last 2 years have upped that number to about 90% to 95%.

Using this information, you can see why it is difficult to increase HP on a modern quad or dirt bike without decreasing fuel efficiency.

For those of you who are automotive/diesel mechanics, I realize some of this information is counter-intuative, but these little single cylinder engines do have many differences from the engines you are used to dealing with.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS - In most cases, fuel additives are Oxygenated. This adds more oxy to the mix of fuel, creating more hp and better fuel economy in cars -- that's why it's added to pump fuel. For our performance engines, this creates erratic jetting and possible seizure issues. What can you lose by trying it? Who knows, you might be lucky and not hurt the engine. But if you do damage it, who's gonna pay? Not the company making the additive! For my money, this stuff is just snake oil, and I'm not willing to risk my $$ to see if it works, especially if they just make claims, without telling you what's in the stuff.

 

Doesnt decreaseing the rotating mass increase your HP as well? Ie. Lighter piston, crank, ect. I would think it would while increasing your fuel economy. I may be wrong, Never personally tested it on a dyno. Also, I thought oxygenating fuels was to increase octane rating while decreaseing bad emmisions compared to older addatives such as tetra ethyl lead. I also do not understand how adding oxygen to the fuel will create more power, Given that the engine was jetted correctly in the first place.

 

<< Doesnt decreaseing the rotating mass increase your HP as well? >>



On a dynojet drum style dyno it would (because it measures the time it takes to get to a given speed). On a hydro dyno it would not (these measure torque). Decreasing rotating mass will normally not increase horsepower, but it will decrease the time it takes to get to peak hp. Unless you're removing something like 20 lbs of weight - then hp would go up.



<< I would think it would while increasing your fuel economy >>



Only on accelleration. On deceleration, you lose out because you don't have as much mass. You'd be ahead of the game, but very very slightly.



<< . I also do not understand how adding oxygen to the fuel will create more power, >>



I'll say one thing - NOS.

Nitros Oxide is not a fuel - i'm sure you know that, some people don't. Nitros is basically Super Oxygen. By adding Nitros (laughing gas) to your regular mix of fuel and air, you increase the amount of &quot;charge&quot; created by each pump of your piston. Make sure you've got the correct fuel to Nitros mixture and whammo! You can almost double your hp.

Oxygenated fuels use this prinipal to do many things: 1. generate better power for the same amount of fuel (same thing as efficency) 2. Run leaner without changing the fuel/air mixture (leaner = less emmissions) 3. really wreck havoc in a performance engine! They don't increase octane ratings as far as I know.

 

I was taught that HP is the amount of work that can be done in a given time, Therefore if you reduce the weight you will increase the HP. Ie. HP = work\time

Yes, I understand the principles of NO2 being used as a supercharger, But by adding NOS you are also cooling the cylinder, allowing for more fuel to enter. No matter how you look at it, with a naturally aspirated engine you can only stuff so much fuel\air into the cylinder. If the oxygen is in the fuel, then you would have to change your jetting, but I cannot see how you would get sufficently extra oxygen into the cylinder to make a difference.

 

<< But by adding NOS you are also cooling the cylinder, allowing for more fuel to enter. >>



Oxygen - or NOS - is not a coolant. Fuel is a coolant (just think about jetting - it's basic - more fuel=richer mix=cooler temps). Oxygen doesn't cool. Increased o2 or NOS Increases cylinder temperatures, not decreases them.

The more oxygen a fire has, the hotter it burns. That's why an ironsmith has bellows which add air to his hot coals (hotter fire).



<< If the oxygen is in the fuel, then you would have to change your jetting, but I cannot see how you would get sufficently extra oxygen into the cylinder to make a difference. >>



That's the point I'm making regarding Oxygenated fuel in performance engines. It doesn't help for the most part, and can do more harm than good (it's erratic for one thing, making it very difficult to jet).

In your family car, it will reduce emmissions, give you more horsepower per ignition, simply because the car is so de-tuned in the first place that the extra oxygen does help.



<< I was taught that HP is the amount of work that can be done in a given time >>



Then what is torque?

The statement is so overly simplified as to not be useful.

I'm not going to go into a technical description of what horsepower is (or even torque for that matter). It takes too long to type, and I don't feel this discussion is going anywhere. Your questions show a decent feel for &quot;seat of the pants&quot; logic. Unfortunately, most of the theory you're basing your arguement on is wrong.

There are many books out there which explain the basics of fuel delivery, consumption, ignition, etc. in small naturally aspirated engines. Most of them are very technical, but are worth wading through if you really want to understand why &quot;fuel additives&quot; aren't typically a good idea. If you would like a listing of these books, I'd be happy to provide them for you.

Unfortunately, I've found that most people are more willing to hold onto some tidbit of information given to them by a buddy, a deisel mechanic, or their uncle than to read and understand the theory and physics which pertain to the engines used in our chosen sport.

Sometimes I see things on this forum which are dangerous for an engine. These are the questions (like this one regarding additives) which I tackle. Unfortunately, I normally get into a question and answer session which involves me quoting solid scientific fact, and someone else quoting what they've heard at the track.

I'm then forced to answer each question, because if I don't, whatever was said last will be believed. It's fun to match wits with people sometimes, but really, it would be nice to just answer a question every once in awhile without having to argue each point.

 

Its to bad you are not upto discussing this. I dont feel we are having an argument, but rather an interesting conversation. Its nice to hear\ read other peoples oppinions about different subjects. Isnt that the point of message boards like this? So If your up to it...

As I see it, Torque; to cause a rotating force ie. 10lbs moved 1ft, HP; The ability to move 33,000lbs 1 foot in 1 minute. Torque is the work, HP is the work over x amount of time.I dont understand how that is complicated to explain.

NOS; Nitrous Oxide System, a fuel delivery system to deliever N02 into an engine. N02= 1 part nitrogen, 2 parts oxygen; Nitrogen is cold, it cools the incoming charge allowing for more fuel to enter into the cylinder, the added O2 is burned with this fuel. Straight O2 into the cylinder would cause some serious problems, like overheating. Using N02 boosts the oxygen while cooling the charge\cylinder.