jammer, I respect what you say and I feel you have the knowledge and all. But, if the CVT makes such great performance and has been out forever, why haven't they put them on sport quads more?

 

jamer42, I need a little help here. "The belt system has no lost time between shifts, as the gear drives do even in there auto modes." Gear drives? What do you consider a "true automatic'? I only responded to the race because you asked if I wanted to race.

I am looking at an exploded view of the Hondamatic that is used in a Rubicon. I only see a couple of gears on the control motor that drives the ball nut that controls the screw shaft that controls the angle of the motor swash plate assembly. I can't see how this would cause any delay between shifts because the trans is not "dis-engaged" while changing "gears". I see the pump swash plate, distributor valves, cylinders, hydraulic motor pistons, swash plate assembly, pump motor shaft, and a main shft. I also see a primary drive gear that is on the outside of the transmission. I do not see any other "gears."

I understand the how the oil under high pressure drives the swash plate that drives the main shaft. I also understand how a combitnation of swash plate angle and oil pressure change the "ranges" and the speed of the out-put shaft. I also have a fair understanding of how the Hondamatic hydromechanical continuously variable transmision works, but I still don't see "all the gears" and the gears I do see I don't understand why they would effect shifting.

 

Umm, it is a Hondamatic transmission. That's why is has a sticker on the back above the right taillight that says "Hondamatic".

 

Sounds like Jammer42 is very misinformed. The Rubicon indeed does have a Hondamatic transmission.

 

jamer42, I only refer to the Hondamatic as a "fully automatic 5-speed manual trans" because you can use either the fully automatic ranges (Drive 1 or Drive 2, D1/D2) or use the ESP (Electronic Shift Program) and control what "gear" (or pre-selected swash-plate angle that represents a gear) like you would with a typical gear driven manual transmission. If your Hondamatic has gears, it is the only one ever produced like it. There is not one single gear inside the Hondamatic transmission. It has such positive shifts (change in swash plate angle) when in the ESP mode and the engine braking is so incredible one may think it does.

If the trans in your Honda has gears and can be shifted with your thumb, then your Honda is either a Rancher 350 ES (ES, Electric Shift, a manual transmission with a servo controlled shifting mechanism) or a Foreman 450 ES. The Hondamatic comes in every TRX500FA Rubicon and the new 400 Rancher AT. The Rincon has a more conventional automotive style automatic transmission.

Confusion cleared up.

There is no transmission in any ATV that even comes close to the Hondamatic. They deliver close to 95% efficiency. I guarantee a lot more horse power is lost through a belt than the Hondamatic. Belts, 1800 technology, Hondamatic, 21st Century technology (only found in a Honda).

Have a great ride next time out!!!!!!

Specta

 

Belts have improved over the years, no doubt. I have several friends that have ridden their belt driven ATV's for years and never replaced a belt. As I had mentioned earlier, when we bought our Rubicon we had been test driving Yamaha and Polaris ATV's. We then drove a Rubicon and hands down liked the Hondamatic transmission over any belt drive system we had ridden. As far as expensive repairs, I knew when we bought it it would be expensive to repair, thats what the check book is for. In the 4000 miles we have put on our Rubicon we have spent $22 on repairs, we cracked a floorboard. If I need to write a check for $2200 I will do that too. Either that or trade it in on a brand new Rubicon with the GPScape option.

I am going to get just a little long winded, bore you, and go on to the next subject. Just a personal comment on "technology" and ATV's.

No, I do not believe Honda follows anyone in the ATV business, especially when it comes to technology. If they are behind on adding features, it is probably because they are watching the others do the “field research” for them or it goes back to the need to stay at 600 pounds or less.

I don't understand why everyone thinks Honda is so far behind in technology. They are not behind, they just choose what they want to use in their ATVs. They must weigh less than 600 pounds (as per agreement Honda, Suzuki, and Yamaha all signed with the government before Polaris ever built an ATV), and whatever else Honda feels like.

As an example, take a look at the new Honda Valkyrie Rune motorcycle. 1800cc horizontally opposed 6-cylinder engine with 6 throttle-body fuel injectors. There is one throttle-body with its own injector mounted to the intake runner of every cylinder. This was a concept motorcycle that Honda decided to build, only one per dealer. Honda also builds a Personal Water Craft with an in-line, DOHC 1235cc fuel injected 4 cylinder with an intercooled turbocharger rated at 165 hp. How easy do you think it would be for Honda to fuel-inject a single cylinder ATV? That is child’s play for Honda, and I am sure a belt drive would be too.

Did you also know that Honda builds the only robot in the world that can walk up a flight of stairs on its own? A quote from Honda's web site about Asimo, "ASIMO is designed to operate in our world, where we need to reach for things, pick things up and navigate along floors, sidewalks - even climb stairs. That's why ASIMO has two arms and two legs and is what is called a humanoid robot. In fact, ASIMO is the world's only humanoid robot that can walk independently and climb stairs. This is important, because in a world full of high curbs, uneven surfaces, obstacles and stairways, this ability is absolutely necessary for ASIMO to be able to easily function and truly assist humans." Maybe Honda should build a laser guided "Asimo" ATV that just has a seat and takes you where you want to go. Does Honda have any technology? A little.

Honda had their design engineers from the Acura NSX design the looks of the Rincon and it’s wheels. The NSX has some technology in it too. Maybe Honda should build an ATV that's engine has aluminum alloy with fiber-reinforced metal (FRM) cylinder liners (maybe for now the nickel silicone carbide lined cylinder like the Rincon is enough for now), with PGM-FI and a Variable Volume Induction System (VVIS) that produces one horse power per 10 cc and redlines around 8000 rpm and still retain its Low Emissions Vehicle (LEV) certification. Honda also builds the lowest emission producing ATVs. What kind of ATV could Honda build if they pooled all their engineers? Could anyone keep up with it? Could you afford one?

Lockers have been around since the 50's or even earlier. CVT style clutches have been around since the 1800s. Now that’s technology. Disc brakes are as old as dirt (however, not as old as drums). How many ATVs have a hydromechanical continuously variable transmission with a computer controlled servo-motor controlling it's output? “Continuously variable”, sound familiar? In D2 it too reaches an overdrive gear ratio.

Quoted from an ATV Magazine article about the Rubicon, "Its revolutionary transmission, excellent ergonomics, big cc engine and Honda's proven ability to build high quality dependable machines add up to a very desirable utility machine. The transmission alone is enough to proclaim it "Best new ATV model" while everything else is just icing on the cake."

It’s just my opinion, but I believe Honda has more technology available than all the other ATV manufactures combined, and then doubled. They all add new "features and benefits" that make them better in different areas, they are all improving their dependability, but how many manufactures actually come out with "new" technology. Like the new aluminum alloy Honda engineers designed just so the Rincon’s pushrods would be lighter than ones already used and accommodate the steel ***** on the end of the pushrods for the lifters and rockers, yet just as strong or stronger. A new aluminum alloy pushrod just to keep the Rincon at it's 600 pound weight limit.

The new GPScape was a 2-3 year joint effort by both Honda and Garmin to make a simple easy to use system that could always get you home and remember places you have been and survive in the ATV environment, and not need batteries. Maybe they liked that idea more than disc brakes. And some ATV manufactures can't eve build their own engines, can you imagine that?

It’s just my opinion, but Honda takes a seat behind no one.

 

AMEN! You said it all Specta!

 

I'm no expert by any means. And I believe everyone should ride what ever suits their fancy. But, I'll say this. I've been riding atv's since I was about 10. I'm 39 now. I've ridden Yamaha, Kawasaki, Polaris and Honda. Out of all of them the Honda's were the only ones that never left me stranded. The worst of the lot was Polaris. Then the Kawasaki. Yamaha was almost as good as the Honda's. I've not owned or ridden a Suzuki so I can't speak on them. Hands down Honda was and still is the most reliable of all that I've had experience with.

To each his own. They are all fun to ride. That's what makes our country great, the right to chose.

 

The only reason Polaris put fuel injection on a mass marketed ATV is just because they could say they were the first. They don't mention to tell everyone how much trouble it will cause in it's first few years of production. The thing about Honda is we wait longer while they perfrect things. So, while Polaris's bragging rights are "we were the first" Hondas is "we weren't the first, but we got it right the first time".

 

jamer42; Are you on a mission from God or in your case, Polaris?? You have done nothing but try to convince me that POS (Polaris abbreviated) and their big rubber band are far superior to what I prefer to ride. Where do you people come from?? And I will thank you for sending me a personal message “Specta, I tried to trade my rubicon in at a honda dealer, he did not want to trade, he said they have had to many problems with the rubicons transmission and it was not reliable!” and saving me from being embarrassed in front of everyone on this forum. Don’t even get me started with reliability; I ride with a very large group of POS ATV’s and they seam to average close to a 25% failure rate. In 4000 miles I have replace a $22 floorboard.

In my original post, I said I did not like manual shift trans and I thought belts were boring. Nowhere did I say belts were bad, junk, less efficient, or anything of the sort. All I stated was I prefer the Hondamatic to the others. Maybe you should re-read it.

Seeing how you have voiced your opinion and taken a few jabs at me, let me respond. I am not saying POS is not a great ATV, but I am going to list a few reasons why I prefer to ride what I do, besides the Hondamatic transmission. Remember, this is only my personal opinion and I am not saying POS is not a GREAT ATV.

I think belts are great, a lot better than a manual trans any day, but they don't impress me. They are like a snowmobile with wheels. I don't like the EBS system POS uses. I have watched too many POS’s ATV's slide down steep loose hills with the rear wheels locked up and the ATV not slowing down. I don't like one brake lever. I don't like the way their brakes bleed off when the park brake is set and they roll off down the hill. Park brakes are a usful item in the Rocky Mountains. I can't stand the constant squeaking of the disc brakes POS uses. Squeak, squeak, and squeak, you can hear a POS coming for miles. I don't like the reverse over ride system. I don't like spending most of the day in low range to save the belt. I don't like the high center of gravity and the unstable feeling I get while riding a SP 500, and sitting on the 700 is like riding a cow. Although they do have "true four wheel drive" that is “far more advanced” in my opinion and experience it is the most problematic system on the market. I have seen way too many occasions on way too many POS’s when it does not function, like my friends brand new 2001 500 HO with 48 miles on it. Maybe POS should use a locker. What happened to the gas gauge on the 500 HO?

I left my key on one time after loading our ATV. When we reached our destination at 10:00 PM for a full moon lit night ride, the battery was dead, that pull start sure was nice. Sure glad we didn’t have a 700 or we would have had another ride cut short. Aren’t they having a problem with the 700 engine starving one of the rods for oil? Does it not say in the owner’s manual not to let the 700 idle too long because of this? Why?

I think Polaris builds a great ATV. Several of my friends have them and are truly happy with them. But I don't like the feel of a belt drive and a Polaris does not suit our needs.

And yes, I don’t believe the other manufactures are capable of building a dependable, functional hydromechanical trans mission, even if they chose to. How many of the engines does Polaris use are manufactured by Polaris?

And yes, I cannot find the agreement for the 600 pounds, I have only read about it in these forums. I could be wrong!! Imagine that! How much is the new 700 going to weigh? 800 pounds?

I hope you buy a “2004 POLARIS SPORTSMAN 700 FUELINJECTED, THE WORLDS FIRST FUEL INJECTED ATV! SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICE IS $7899!” You can add it to you P650, SP700, Rubicon (even though it has such a junky transmission) and what ever else you have. My tow hook is on the back. Feel free to call.

Good by,

Specta