It's that time of year again! What do you think???? Ever since Honda came out with the XR650 dirt bike, I thought a 650EX quad would follow in short order....never happened.

Now, Yamaha has the Raptor 700 which one magazine claim is the #1 selling quad, so that has to get Honda's attention. (That #1 has to be nationwide, because it certainly isn't what I am seeing here locally in So. Calif.) Honda really missed out on this one! They could have captured this market segment years ago, but they let is slip by.

What was their mistake???? For quite a few years, they went and put all their R&D efforts into designing needlessly complex automatic transmissions for their big bore utilites, and literally left the sport quad lineup to stagnate. (From 99 thru 04, all we saw new in the sport quad lineup was the lowly 250EX....little more than a Recon utility in sport plastic.) It took Yamaha to force them to bring out the 450R....they got caught napping on that one big time, and had to rush it into production! Now that sport quads are taking off again, anybody think they realized their mistake and they will jump in there with a big bore????

Based on the dirt bikes, I am skeptical. The 450X seems to be replacing the XR650 in desert racing, so I think Honda has put all its eggs in the 450 basket. In a way I can understand their philosophy....do more with less. When a 450 can go as fast as a 650, maybe it just doesn't make any sense. But still, Honda really missed out on a marketing opportunity here!

 

I'm with you on the 650EX. This machine should have been put on the floors 5 years ago.

Like you said, desert racing is even switching to 450 power. And from everything I have read this year and last, 2007 was the last model year for the XR650R and it's replacement is to come this Fall. That's been the big stink in the rumor mill anyway. Nothing concrete,...yet.

I belive that if Honda was to build a TRX450X though,.... a 450R based quad with a wide ratio tranny and a suspension more catered to general offroad use, rather than aimed more for motocross.....it would be a big hit with the guys who are wishing for a big bore.
Who knows,...maybe there will be a TRX 450X,....and maybe THAT is what will end up replacing the 400EX. ???
Just over a month and we will know for sure.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: reconranger

It's that time of year again! What do you think????

Now, Yamaha has the Raptor 700 which one magazine claim is the #1 selling quad, so that has to get Honda's attention. (That #1 has to be nationwide, because it certainly isn't what I am seeing here locally in So. Calif.)</end quote></div>

I am thinking they are either going to do some major improvement to the 400ex or maybe even completely surprising everybody by replacing it with a new big bore to compete with the Raptor 700. Either way I can wait too see what Honda has up thier sleeve for the first week of September. (Rumor is the 450 dirt bikes wil be getting EFI).

I have been seeing more and more Raptors locally, saw five 700s this morning at Rowher Flats. Plus I got to try out a brand spankin new YFZ450 GYTR Bill Balance Edition today. Very nice quad but for the long rides I do, I am still glad I went with the Rappy.

 

There is a fuel injected 490 engine out there! Could it end up in a quad chassis????

http://forums.atvconnection.co...atid/8/threadid/524444

With the KTM 525 out there, Honda is likely to have some stiff competition this year at Baja, a race they have always dominated in both the dirt bike (formerly with the XR650, but now with the CRF450X) and quad (TRX450R) sectors. Competition between manufacturers is good for us....it forces them to improve the products!

On the other hand, I don't think that in the sport quad realm that we need to play the bigger and bigger bore game that some of the manufacturer's are playing with their utility lineup. I mean....do we really want to see 800 pound, 1000cc quads????

My interest in this is more an attempt to analyze Honda's missed opportunity at exploiting this market segment.....and more of an attempt to get inside Honda's head, rather than a personal desire to be hitting the trail on a big bore. I can kill myself just fine on a 400EX, and the 450R is way faster than that, so it's not like I am craving even more speed......

On another note, I am betting that Honda has dumped most of its recent R&D efforts into developing a side-by-side, and we won't see many major changes in the quad segment. This is a historic pattern with Honda! Between 99 (the release of the 400EX) and 04 (the release of the 450R), we saw nothing new whatsoever from Honda in the sport quad segement (except the 250EX, which is just a Recon in sport plastic), while they came out with one new utility quad after another. Benign neglect of the sport quad linup maybe....but neglect just the same!

 

In my opinion, I think the side by side plans regarding Honda has been axed for good due to the legal department.
I've heard from many sources that their legal team put the brakes on it late last year after learning of the development of the Polaris Razr. How much of that is actual fact, I dont know, but that is the hot topic here.

What was told to me from a very reliable source last year was that Honda didnt have a side by side at the show last year because they learned of patent infringements on the model at the last possible minute and halted it's unveiling until it could do an investigation.

Taking the rumor and taking the relaible info into account,...two possible things could have happened here.
One,...they are still working around a patent issue and delaying it's launch.
Or two,...the legal department axed plans for it because they want to see what lawsuits follow behind the Razr. As we all know,..this is no Rhino by any means. A bombardment of lawsuits would do to the side by side market,...exactly what occured in the 3 wheeler days. Genocide at it's finest. Maybe Honda doesnt want their name in the hat for the moment??

The side by side,..although not an intriguing vehicle segment to myself does have to be most interesting and mysterious vehicle to NOT come off their assembly lines.
So again,...we must wait and see.

 

if you look at the specs of a big bore and smaller bore sports quad. 450-700 are all about the same speed but the 450's has about a 10.5 cpr but the polaris outlaw 525 is the only big bore with 10.5 cpr the 700, and 660 raptor, and ds650 has i think a 9.6 cpr.in till you raise the cpr on a big bore they wont be much fastier then the 450s.

 

thats not really true. yfz450 is 11.4 (actually lowered from 11.9) suzuki is 11.7, honda is 12 (changed in 2006 from 10.5) and a z400 is 11.3

raptor is 9.2. so raising the compression wont make a difference? hmmmmmmmm. i guess all the engine builders on here and throughout the world must be wasting their time with high compression pistons.

the point of the big bore from honda is not really for speed. its for the all around bike that doesnt have the inherent need to rev and wind like the 450s. thats how 450s make all that power and that's why maintenance is so critical on these - the rpms they turn increase engine component wear.

now a good allround bike like the raptor (or 400ex as some seem to forget about) doesnt have to scream to make power - allthough it can (not like 10-11k or anything like that, but more than most people need!) they have a broad torque curve. a z400 is not bad, but is a little more revvy than some would like though it is the best bang fo the buck you can buy.

the '650ex' engine would not have to work as hard, not turn as many rpms and produce more torque in a wider powerband. thats what people are after for the most part.

 

There clearly is a replacement for displacement! I have friends who own both 450's and Raptor 700's, and if you ask any of them they will tell you that their own 700's are not as fast as their own 450's. On the other hand, the Raptor is a torque monster...for those who like their power right off the bottom, rather than way high up in the RPM range.

The industry went to the high reving 450/250's to in some way duplicate 2-stroke performance, seeing that the 2-stroke's days were numbered. This may have been what the MX set was craving, but I'm not sure it was ever what the cross country riders had in mind. In any case, I find the 450R to be a superb machine for the open desert, but for a tight technical woods trail (where I rarely get out to 3re gear), the torque and power of a Raptor is just wasted, and all the rev of a 450R makes for lots of clutch slipping. In the woods, I'll just stick to my good old 400EX.

 

twenty thanks for adding in what i forgot. also thanks for putting in all the cprs for the 450s i didnt know all of them i only know the 06 450r cpr.

 

reconranger, your still here- sweet, I agree on honda needing to build a new 650 or 700CC unicam engine and placeing it into a CRF and another into a quad- then honda needs to put a good EFI system on them that isnt "programed" EFI and is more like OBDII where it can make adjustments quickly and offer smooth cold start idle