V Force Power band
#31
10-07-2003, 11:05 AM
V Force Power band
Originally posted by: bbertram
Yah but did you read any follow up posts? I doubt it or else you would see that his stop watch was screwed up and it was actually 4.24 or so. He did say that to everyone. Also that time was not just from an increase of timing it was from his NOS and his other mods.
Yah but did you read any follow up posts? I doubt it or else you would see that his stop watch was screwed up and it was actually 4.24 or so. He did say that to everyone. Also that time was not just from an increase of timing it was from his NOS and his other mods.
#32
10-07-2003, 11:07 AM
#34
10-07-2003, 11:22 AM
V Force Power band
Not from the unlimiter module DG will be releasing, which is only at 28 degrees throughout the RPM range, max RPM stock is about 8000-8500 RPM.
Alltoys has his custom ignition which advances the timing to 33 degrees I think across the RPM range, max RPM is about 10500-11000 RPM.
Yes I believe Alltoys custom ignition can do it but not the unlimiter from DG, maybe the DG module will create 10 HP.
Alltoys has his custom ignition which advances the timing to 33 degrees I think across the RPM range, max RPM is about 10500-11000 RPM.
Yes I believe Alltoys custom ignition can do it but not the unlimiter from DG, maybe the DG module will create 10 HP.
#35
10-07-2003, 04:43 PM
V Force Power band
Freeze,
Well done I have used this formula for some time with respect to building engines I have raced a number of bikes mostly Harleys in the past and I find the Kawi V-twin..........fun. One result with moddified ignition on a stock 650 engine puts out 57.5 HP at the crank at roughly 9500 rpm. The only way the rpm can reach this high is with modds to the intake. In stock form I have had my quad at a positive one atmosphere which also is an important equation to reach. As you say most machines only respond to %50 of their efficiency to make them perform above %100 is a tough job. I had to go a long way to have my basic stock machine to perform at %65 with most modds plus a few. To get my 650 motor over 100 HP I had to change a good deal of the motor just to allow for more air fuel mixture, increased Ponys trade off was heat. I have had my motor up to 125 HP before I spun a bearing this has been a drastic motor modd but it is capable. You say it is difficult to have the twin cylinder 650 cc motor to rev above 12,000 rpm you are very correct you also say that it would take a team of very qualified engineers to get anything above the 12,000 rpm, disintegration point LOL. I have done the math too LOL. I would have had to agree with you until I went to Sweden this last August where I had the sheer joy of talking with a group of engineers and Superbike Pilots from the Ducati race team. They had a 600cc road racer twin cylinder 90* fireing twin road racer. This baby redlines at 15,000 rpm I know I had it there many times with a cut off at 15,000. Not sure of the HP rating on the 600 they would not tell me but it was on the scary side. They also have a diesel powered 850cc that is in the top 5 in Europe for the 1000cc super bike circuit it's rpm range is around 9000 rpm very respectable the only problem is they would not let my ride it. One of the best things I received from this trip is a fully tuneable ignition that the engineers designed for me I have been in contact with them for over a year now trying to find the Ultimate ignition. All I am saying is the edge is defined but there are ways of circumventing the edge( changing the defined line )
I agree with you totally the math does not lie but there are other factors involved, you show a good point. One more thing that you said about ignitions with respect to timeing. Actually a couple of other limiting factors surrounding the Kawi motor intake, cams, exhaust, compression, clutching, ROTATIONAL MASS, and of course IGNITION. Even when DG unleashes the unlimiter it is not going to have a great amount of power produced at most you may gain 10mph on top end only if you have a least amount of modds done to your machine. Your top end may not change but what will happen is your gains out of the hole up to your top end will improve by at least %15. Not much you may think but it will give you an extra 20 feet from 0 - 60 mph this is what 4 quad lengths roughly. The cams on the Prairie are designed to give more bottom end torque they do very well up to 7500 rpm after that they fall off dramatically. If cams are changed then compression and grunt CC's are needed on the bottom end then the cams can take over. WE can cheat a little with blowers, super chargers( I like Super Chargers), Nos, but this involves another set of equations best left for class SPEEDAMUS MAXIMUS CATCH ME IF YOU CANUS down the hall to the right.
Well done I have used this formula for some time with respect to building engines I have raced a number of bikes mostly Harleys in the past and I find the Kawi V-twin..........fun. One result with moddified ignition on a stock 650 engine puts out 57.5 HP at the crank at roughly 9500 rpm. The only way the rpm can reach this high is with modds to the intake. In stock form I have had my quad at a positive one atmosphere which also is an important equation to reach. As you say most machines only respond to %50 of their efficiency to make them perform above %100 is a tough job. I had to go a long way to have my basic stock machine to perform at %65 with most modds plus a few. To get my 650 motor over 100 HP I had to change a good deal of the motor just to allow for more air fuel mixture, increased Ponys trade off was heat. I have had my motor up to 125 HP before I spun a bearing this has been a drastic motor modd but it is capable. You say it is difficult to have the twin cylinder 650 cc motor to rev above 12,000 rpm you are very correct you also say that it would take a team of very qualified engineers to get anything above the 12,000 rpm, disintegration point LOL. I have done the math too LOL. I would have had to agree with you until I went to Sweden this last August where I had the sheer joy of talking with a group of engineers and Superbike Pilots from the Ducati race team. They had a 600cc road racer twin cylinder 90* fireing twin road racer. This baby redlines at 15,000 rpm I know I had it there many times with a cut off at 15,000. Not sure of the HP rating on the 600 they would not tell me but it was on the scary side. They also have a diesel powered 850cc that is in the top 5 in Europe for the 1000cc super bike circuit it's rpm range is around 9000 rpm very respectable the only problem is they would not let my ride it. One of the best things I received from this trip is a fully tuneable ignition that the engineers designed for me I have been in contact with them for over a year now trying to find the Ultimate ignition. All I am saying is the edge is defined but there are ways of circumventing the edge( changing the defined line )
I agree with you totally the math does not lie but there are other factors involved, you show a good point. One more thing that you said about ignitions with respect to timeing. Actually a couple of other limiting factors surrounding the Kawi motor intake, cams, exhaust, compression, clutching, ROTATIONAL MASS, and of course IGNITION. Even when DG unleashes the unlimiter it is not going to have a great amount of power produced at most you may gain 10mph on top end only if you have a least amount of modds done to your machine. Your top end may not change but what will happen is your gains out of the hole up to your top end will improve by at least %15. Not much you may think but it will give you an extra 20 feet from 0 - 60 mph this is what 4 quad lengths roughly. The cams on the Prairie are designed to give more bottom end torque they do very well up to 7500 rpm after that they fall off dramatically. If cams are changed then compression and grunt CC's are needed on the bottom end then the cams can take over. WE can cheat a little with blowers, super chargers( I like Super Chargers), Nos, but this involves another set of equations best left for class SPEEDAMUS MAXIMUS CATCH ME IF YOU CANUS down the hall to the right.
#36
10-07-2003, 05:12 PM
#39
10-08-2003, 03:17 AM
V Force Power band
DirtyWhiteBoy.
Yes you are correct that combustion efficiancy should be considered. In the formula it is actually taken into account. Horsepower is a result of how efficiently a motor burns the intake gas and that in turn effects volumetric efficiancy. In most modern engines combustion efficiancy is good, but there are always ways to improve it. It however takes very special software to design the combustion chamber and piston to get this improved. Something very few people have and to make these new heads and pistons take mega cash and lots of trial and error.
Alltoys, the man himself.
Things sound a lot more believable after your explanation. Yes I agree with you. Lots of other things will have to be changed in the motor to get the power up. Formula 1 race cars rev to 17000 rpm plus, so it is very possible to get the motor to rev that high, but you’ll need some very special pistons to do so. Guys like Ducati and the other racing guys have the budget to get their hands on stuff like this.
I am very interested in what you have done with the intake and exhaust on this bike. Especially what did you do with the exhaust system. The standard system has two different length pipes, and is not best suited for performance. I have been playing with induction tuning and resonators on the intake system plus some exhaust theory. Have you done anything like this and if so, what have you found?
You can e-mail me at webchill@hotmail.com
Yes you are correct that combustion efficiancy should be considered. In the formula it is actually taken into account. Horsepower is a result of how efficiently a motor burns the intake gas and that in turn effects volumetric efficiancy. In most modern engines combustion efficiancy is good, but there are always ways to improve it. It however takes very special software to design the combustion chamber and piston to get this improved. Something very few people have and to make these new heads and pistons take mega cash and lots of trial and error.
Alltoys, the man himself.
Things sound a lot more believable after your explanation. Yes I agree with you. Lots of other things will have to be changed in the motor to get the power up. Formula 1 race cars rev to 17000 rpm plus, so it is very possible to get the motor to rev that high, but you’ll need some very special pistons to do so. Guys like Ducati and the other racing guys have the budget to get their hands on stuff like this.
I am very interested in what you have done with the intake and exhaust on this bike. Especially what did you do with the exhaust system. The standard system has two different length pipes, and is not best suited for performance. I have been playing with induction tuning and resonators on the intake system plus some exhaust theory. Have you done anything like this and if so, what have you found?
You can e-mail me at webchill@hotmail.com
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