Even though I disagree with high prices charged for these machines new....
Can anybody think they can match a moded raptor as the one in Aug 01 ATV Sport magazine.
I did a quick calculation if you bought a used raptor at $5,000.00 in great condition and added about the same items minus a few that they did in that Baja raptor project in the magazine ex;($550.00 for almost 50 hp, and TCS sag control suspension which is alot better than the ohlins, lagear +3 a arms and durablue axle. You would have vary close to the same amount of money that you would have invested in a new cannondale. And I think the moded raptor would destroy and stock cannondale, being that a stock cannodale already has aftermarket goodies. My point is that I doubt you could add more aftermarket goodies to the cannondale to make it much faster, but when your dealing with a big bore engine such as 660cc and the bomb 650cc the upgrades are almost endless, and there simply is alot more you can do to an engine this size without putting to much strain on the parts. Plus there is no replacement for displacement. Espially in the torque department. another way of looking at it. A $8-9,000.00 raptor vs. cannondale would be no competition. I think the raptor would kill the cannondale anyways. My two cents worth. Vary few people buy quads and keep them stock. In ATV magazine with a mear $550.00 and several dyno runs they were able to improve the raptor from 32 hp to 49hp and increase the torque everywhere on the powerband. So I still don't see the big deal about the cannondale. I would never go with Ohlins anyway over Axis, TCS, or PEP sorry!! They have not been proven yet in ATV's.

This is almost too funny not to respond...... In your other post you were compainling how much it cost for a new quad and couldn't see forking out $8000.00 for a new Cannondale when you could get a used Raptor with mods for $5000.00!! Now you just want to rip the Cannondale because you can mod a Raptor for roughly the same price as the Cannondale, my calculations bring the Raptor about $350.00 over the C-dale MSRP. You still don't get an alluminum frame, fuel injection, cassette tranny, and altogether lighter package. And what aftermarket goodies does the Cannondale have? Cannondale choose to build their quads with quality components, they have a pipe made by FMF but it's not an after market pipe. It has Ohlins shocks, but because no other manufacturer uses them on theirs( read; cost cutting) it makes them aftermarket? They also use steel braided brake line instead of cheaper rubber ones. The other things I listed are built into the design of the bike, the only thing that comes close to aftermarket is the wheels and tires because you can buy those exact ones aftermarket.

You also need to do a little research, Cannondale put a 500cc piston in a Cannibal and took it to some drags at the Blair-Bedford dragstrip and won the 700cc catagory, I guess those moded Raptors were "no competition" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

You have an intresting theory for why you couldn't add more to make the C-dale much faster is because you doubt it!! There are so many smaller displacment engines that produce high hp I don't know where to start. There is more to speed and hp than displacement, yeah you have torque with displacment, I have raced Raptors and their torque was negligable, the C-dale is much lighter and has power like a 2-stroke and has bottom end. Obviously you havn't ridden one either.

And there is no big deal with the, C-dale you just sound envious that other people have them but you couldn't afford it so you want to whine about price, but then you'd go out and spend more on a moded Raptor, then make agnostic comments about the C-dale.

And now you want to drag Ohlins through the mire, who's next ITP,FMF? Ohlins has proven them selves time and again, just because no one else builds their ATV's stock with Ohlins makes them unproven. Those other manufactures are great but what do they hold over Ohlins?

Just because C-dale has raised the bar on ATV's and it cost money to R&D something and they ask a bit more for thier bikes and quads is no reason to bash them. And as I've said before which other manufacturer will fix quaility issues for the customer in mid production...ZERO!


Moto24
'01 FX400
'98 Kawi ZX-9R
'90 Kawi ZX-7 (superbike)
'84 VF750R
'80 Kawi KZ650

A Raptor modified like that may kill a cannondale,but it dosent bother me any because I feel like I made the best decesion on what I bought. Like I said before my $8000.00 is being financed. I could have got a Raptor,400ex,250R ect. used and got all kinds of mods for the same price. The only problem is I couldnt finance all those mods.,so thats cash money I would have to have (or a high credit limit on a credit card). Also used means no warranty. Cannondale is doing everything to make there customers happy while everyone else just makes graphics and color changes for the next years models.I do have to say Yamaha did something that I didnt think they ever would and thats updating one of there mistakes(gear change on Raptor). Any way there is alot more hidding in the C-Dale power plant than what most people think I beleive. Have you read about the new EFI for the 2002 models if not check it out on there web site. I think that along with a slip on exhaust would keep up with the moded raptor in a drag race but I may be wrong. That along with suspension revalved for the rider I think it would keep up with the modified raptor on the track. Now about the mags. I think those guys are crazy. Ive never seen a pipe, filter,airbox mod.,and jetting give a four-stroke 14.2 more hp. Im not saying its not true its just hard for me to beleive. You no what? Thinking about it thats as much hp as a slighty modified 250X! You say there is no replacement for displacement Cannondale has changed that old saying to there is no replacement for EFI and all Aluminum Frame. My 432cc C-Dale has beat every thing that Ive raced in a drag so far, and that includes Raptors,EXs,Rs,and one totaly modified (engine) Banshee. AS far as only beating an EX that has a pipe on it by a few lenghts,well I raced one last week on the strip where the track owner is making a sand drag and I would say I beat him by 6 lenghts, so dont beleive every thing you read in the mags. cctman have you rode a C-Dale yet? If not you need to, if so what do you think about it? Ohlins may not be the best but they are the best on any production quad right now. They helped the best quad racer in history win many of his 8 National Championships. I know that was a long time ago but they have proven themselves. I heard that they were working on some new shocks that will be different than any others out there.

Moto24 you are way off base here. CdaleRacer is a lot more understanding of my comments than you are here. First off. I look at it this way. Cannondale is charging you more money for the Ohlins shocks ITP wheels and the FMF pipe. Don't believe me just take a look at the different Cannondale models that don't have them. Now, what doesn't make sense to me is this. If I were to buy a cannondale I would rather them have an open policy where you pay the 8,000.00 and you get to pick the suspension, pipe, and wheels. Because even though I like the ITP wheels and have used them on R's in the past. I would never choose FMF over LRD/CT or some other brands. And as far as Ohlins. No way they aren't even tripple rate. And if you do the math they are charging you for them. If I were to buy shocks after market and it was my choice and the manufacture was going to add the extra cost into the ATV, I would run like I said AXIS, Ohlins, or PEP. Why do you think national champions use them? Like I said before I don't see buying a already built bike for 8,000.00 because you have already let somebody else make the decision for you to what afterarket mods are made and put on for you. And as far as your not saying that these aren't aftermarket mods... then this hurts your case even more. ecause if you don't consider these aftermarket mods then what is Cannondale charging you 8 grand for? Are you kidding? and as far as me not being able to afford a Cannondale, where did you get this info? I said I couldn't see spending that much on that particular bike and that I had friends that were in all different skill levels that feel the same way. I never said I couldn't afford one. Just that I couldn't see budgeting that much money for that high of a monthly payment for 8,000 toy. And as far as drag racing which you seem to put a lot of emphasis in .. Vary few people buy an ATV just for drag racing. I tell you what you buy your $8,000.00 Cannondale and meet me out on any track and I'll will go buy a $8,000.00 x pro 250R . I gurantee you I will dominated in every area. drag or not. Have you seen the 8-12,000.00 national pro 250R's. I could get a used national R completely gusted powder coated frame or roll design alot better and stronger than your aluminum frame. Every aftermarket part you can think of, lagear, durablue, extended travel set up for TT, baja, drag you name it for the same price you pay for a stock Cannondale. I have seen tricked out perfect condition 250r's with every trick on them for less than $8,000.00 So maybe after your humor has been redirected at yourself, you may not find it so funny anymore for jumping the gun and the poor decision you just made.

I havent ridden either a raptor or a cannondale as I am kinda a 2-stroke guy myself.

However, you are comparing apples to oranges when comparing the C-dale to the raptor. Which is what pisses me off. The raptor is a 660CC while the C-dale is a 432CC! You say "no replacement for displacement" in which case that C-dale shouldnt be able to touch a stock raptor, let alone a modded one! The raptor has an extra 1/3 more displacement, yet its no faster than the C-dale.

If you like a raptor so much, go buy one, if you are just sad you dont have the state of the art c-dale, then sorry man!

Also, of course they charge you a little bit for some ohlins (top quality) shocks, a STATE OF THE ART aluminum frame, EFI and cassette tranny, ITP wheels, FMF pipe, EVERYONE CHARGES FOR THAT. You dont seen yamaha putting any of that stuff on their RAPTOR for free do ya? If you want to go put an FMF pipe on a raptor, how much will it cost ya? Probably 150 bucks or more, then some TCS shocks, those are real cheap, $850 for the front and another $850 for the rear. Lets say you wanted ohlins, as thats what the C-dale has, thats about $550 for the front and more than that for the rear, for the cheaper ones! Then how bout some ITP rims and Holeshots, thats probably 300 bucks total. So what that add up to? Approx $1500-1600 bucks, and then you still dont have the great frame or tranny.
Whats a raptor NEW sell for, you cant compare a new c-dale to a used raptor? I think its something like 6995, while the C-dale is what like 7995 or something for the speed. Thats 1,000 difference, soooo for that modded raptor you would be 600 bucks more than the c-dale which will still probably run with it on a motocross track. So really, you are spending more on the raptor than the C-dale and gettin way better stuff stock on teh C-dale, in my opinon.

Just wait till next year and see how the C-dales are doing in teh GNC and GNCC circuits, and when they are dominating everything else out there, then go trade your raptor.

First off I never said I would buy a new raptor ... I think spending even 6,900.00 for a new atv isn't worth it. So I will wait until the unsupecting guy decides to sell his for $5,000.00. You know the one with the aftermarket pipe and durablue axle. Ya OK ! and I will still have plenty of money to run with yours. Stock for stock new for new you may have a leg to stand on... or do you? I disagree with your math first off. I can get PEP or TCS shocks a lot less expensive than you declared, and I wouldn't buy a TCS rear. I would have them revalve the stock and rebuild it, about half the money you would spend on a new one. I would also use about $550.00 to get my 49hp out of my raptor which would kill any Can. And lets say for the sake of argument that I was going to buy a stock new raptor in which I wouldn't, but anyways, where are you getting 6,900.00 for a new raptor. They are cutting deals from what I heard as low as 6,500-6,000. At least at the my local dealers in my area they are. So that leaves me with 6,500-8,000.00 1,500.00 to spend. I have a bigger bore engine putting almost 10-15 more hp than yours stock, and alot better suspension and a drop of 3 inches on the seat height. This would not include any other small items that would still keep under your 8,000.00 Can budget. So just a small response to your opinion. faster, more torque, more hp, and better suspension for less price on a new raptor for less than you paid for a 8,000.00 Cannondale.

Oh they're suppose to give you the shocks,wheels,tires and pipe for free? They also are charging for a more efficient engine,fuel injection, cassette tranny, steel braided brake lines, a stronger lightwieght alluminum frame, quick disconnect fuel tank, etc. You still don't get it do you? Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki all use old technology engines, you know how long the 660 engine has been around? Or the Honda 400 air cooled or the Mojave 250 engine? They all have the technology now to put new stuff in ATV's but choose not to and keep the price at a level that most people can afford. Once again, C-dale has just raised the bar, this does happen on occasion and instead of complaining or ripping on C-dale be glad that someone has taken the step to better
production ATV's or stick with the old and be happy with that.

You've jumped from comparing a used Raptor to one with mods and now, you've moved to trying to compare it with a 250R. You don't seem to be too sure what you want.

And I didn't didn't put so much emphasis on drag racing, I was just stating a fact with real results, you did say "And I think the moded raptor would destroy and stock cannondale"
ok the C-dale had a 500cc piston in it but it still giving up atleast 160cc.

Like I said before C-dale choose to use higher quality components in production than the other manufactures, so they wouldn't be considered aftermarket, how does this hurt my case?
You're paying for the complete package(read; frame,fuel injection etc.) read closer and try to understand that.

Not sure what you mean by, "Don't believe me just take a look at the different Cannondale models that don't have them", as far as I can tell the newer C-dales will all have Ohlins, but they will be upgraded, the cheaper Cannibal won't but the early prodction ones have everything the FX has.

Ohlins has proven themselves many times in many diffrent championships, maybe they're not the suspension for you.

I'm sure you have technical data to back up your claim that the frame on the C-dale isn't as strong as an aftermarket design, those were designed to replace the old steel frames, not the frame on the C-dale [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Oh I know I made the right decision and I'm still laughing at how you havn't substantiated a claim you have made with your "I'm sure","I garuntee" and "I thinks". I gave you a result and you try to turn it around, lol. Also others and myself have raced Raptors and EX's and others and given their results in this forum, no speculation involved there.

Also when you do get around to getting your Raptor or 250R do you think if you have a problem you can go to the manufacter for help if you don't like something, I know I can depend on C-dale. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Enjoy your next ride whatever it may be.

Moto24
'01 FX400
'98 Kawi ZX-9R
'90 Kawi ZX-7 (superbike)
'84 VF750R
'80 Kawi KZ650

You keep waiting for that Raptor, I'll be riding my FX400, by then maybe something new will be out that you can complain about the price and say you'll wait till you can find a used one of those, and so on and so on.........

I find this very commical and won't get involved other then setting the record straight regarding pricing.

The 2001 Raptor's are selling for 5895.- now, plus tax, title and prep., I paid 6200.- out the door in Sept 00. Don't quote me on this but, I believe the c-dale costs 7900.-

= $1700.- difference.

I'm done.

You are correct on the Raptor... However on the Cdale, the Cannibal is 6995.00 plus tax....Granted that's without the high dollar shocks and alum rims/holeshots and the ultra trick exhaust. But who cares? How many of us really would appreciate (get full use of) ohlins on our trail ride? I have seen dealers sell Cdales at 500 off list to get them out there, so who knows you may find a cdale for 6900 out the door vs 6200 out the door for the raptor... If there is a problem,wouldnt you be glad you paid the extra 700 bucks and get your butt kissed by Cdale instead of ignored by Yamaha? I wont even bring up the stuff the cdale has over the raptor. You surely know it by now.

This isnt to argue more about the C-dale and raptor, its to the guy who posted the raptor price as 5895. I was just wondering where you got that price, and was that what they had on the sticker or did you do a little dealing? I only ask because of the 2 yamaha dealers within an hour of here, the cheapest sticker price of the two was 6895, the other was 69?? I dont remember exactly. I tried to get both down, the guys that wanted 69?? would go to 6850 and the others would go the same, so a far cry, actually a grand from what you quoted.
I would probably be interested in a new raptor for that cost for trail riding, as a tricked out MX 250r isnt the best trail maching known to man. And reverse would be nice =)

Also to the guy who started this thread, there is a raptor in my local trader selling a raptor for 5200 w/skidplates, the yamaha racing exhaust and renthals. There is also a C-dale for sale for 7200 with a set of turf tamers on 190's and mx holeshot fronts also on 190's.

rhino99,

Chicago Cycle Center is selling 2001 Raptors for $5895.- plus tax title prep, etc. OTD price? I can't say.

HYRO (Honda Yamaha of River Oaks in Lansing, IL, I will bet you they will sell you a 2001 brand new Raptor for less then 6200.- OTD If you want a name at Hyro let me know, I would be happy to help a felllow atv'er out.

Hope to have helped, let me know if you need a name.

Swy

Why would anyone even want a 2001 Raptor? Gimme a 2002 at this point!

Cheaper and unchanged from the 2002.


Moto24
'01 FX400
'98 Kawi ZX-9R
'90 Kawi ZX-7 (superbike)
'84 VF750R
'80 Kawi KZ650

Acually in that drag race it was 454cc 13.8:1 Piston.

And think about it this way buying a cannondale compared to buying a Raptor is like buy a bently instead of a mercedes. Your getting more quad for your money.

As moto24 said. Raptor is unchanged for 2002. Who wants a bike that the manufacturer isn't consitantly striving for perfection and supremacy! If you're a person willing to settling for less out of a quad and out of the manufacturer, then the raptor is a good choice.

OK, well you guy keep talking about state of the art design and stuff.... all this means to me is, state of the art high payments when you wad your fuel injection machine on a real big wreck. I would like to see you try gusting and welding your cast aluminum frame back together. Guess what, it ain't going to happen! so you may find out that you will be purchasing a whole new frame. And if your out of warranty because warranties deffinately don't last for ever then your coming out of pocket. There is a reason why the other manufactures haven't gone to higher priced components in there ATV's like fuel injection. Think about it now... dealers such as suzuki, honda, and yamaha have been playing with sportbikes and fuel injection for the last couple of years now, do you honestly think they haven't already thought about adding fuel injection in the 400ex or raptor before. My guess is that they don't think people are willing to pay the extra 1,000.00 or so for fuel injection when it may or may not benefit the bike at all and it just may make it a heck of alot harder to fix when it breaks. And until Cannondale can get 49hp just like the raptor and bomb can for around a measily $500-600.00 I will sticking to my higher hp friends.

Your argument has changed throughout this whole topic you started, first it was whining about the price and hoping C-dale would hear you and bring the price down so you could afford one within your budget. Then you changed your whole tune and have tried to bash them because you can't.

Those other companies have gotten away with selling you low-tech ATV's for years is because they don't push each other, ATV's are at the end of the food chain when it comes to importance or had been, also lawsuits didn't help with development over the years. More technology is trickling down though, wait a few years and see what Honda will have in the motorcycle engines, it's existing technology in F1 and passenger cars. You know how old the 660 Raptor engine is? Bombadier was the only company willing to use race bred engines in the Rotax.
Now C-dale pushed the envolope even further but you can't live with that. And I guarantee you will see the BIG FOUR will follow suit as soon as next year, and the prices will go up accordingly.

And hp figures don't mean much, it's a nice fuzzy warm thing you can show all your buddies, but it's the over all package that matter, I like power-to-weight, throttle response and torque. Even one of the mags, not that I give them much credince, had the C-dale making more hp than the Raptor on their dyno and I believe the Raptor even had a pipe. Even C-dales site has the Raptor making more power than their bike, so dynos aren't good for getting accurate #'s when comparing diffrent ATV's or motorcycles. They are good for getting baseline #'s and seeing where improvments have been made and making adjustments.

And if you ask any tuner or racer if they had a choice of fuel injection or carbs I'll bet atleast 9 of 10 would choose fuel injection. Fuel injection has had trouble with some bikes, GSXR's had trouble with it at first and Triumph probably had one of the biggest duds with the TT600 and its FI but it works on Hondas F4i and Kawi's ZX-12 and C-dale's FX400 and thier motocrossers, FI is the present and future for all types of motorcycling, get used to it.


Moto24
'01 FX400
'98 Kawi ZX-9R
'90 Kawi ZX-7 (superbike)
'84 VF750R
'80 Kawi KZ650

Do you guys think you'll EVER get this pissing match settled??? Enough already!

alright im goin to try and get someone to fuel inject my raptor alright then we will see hahaha that the pissy fit begin becuase unlike some poeple im goin to take my time modding my quad and i will have a very nice quad alright a cannondale is sweet but it looks like a horese a$$ i like my raptor but i hate the handling and u know what a cannondale fx40 is just the same they both dont handle worth $hit when there stock what dou expect and another thing u wait till them aluminum frames start cracking in mx cannondale might have light weight and all th good stuff but if u refer to their bikes and dirtbikes they are not good quality they might be fast but they dont last long

I do refer to their bikes, infact the quality of their bikes was one big reason I bought the FX400, not sure where you get your info from. Alluminum frames can crack and so can steel frames, so I'm not sure what your point is. Also it hasn't stopped Honda from putting alluminum frames on their CR250 has it, but Cannondale will get ridiculed for putting them on their atv's and bikes? Sounds like another case of C-dale envy.

I do hope you enjoy your Raptor though.

Moto24
'01 FX400
'98 Kawi ZX-9R
'90 Kawi ZX-7 (superbike)
'84 VF750R
'80 Kawi KZ650

Somebody said C'dale bicycles don't last very long?!!? Man, where are you getting your information? You obviously don't know too much about mountain bikes, do you?

It is common knowledge that Cannondale bicycles are some of the best in the world if not the best. The list of firsts on their bikes is second to none. There may be some new fly-by-night mountain bike out this week that is touted as better by the mags, but over the years those guys come and go - C'dale has been there from the very beginning of mountain biking and mountain bike racing. Their warranty is LEGENDARY in the sport. You break it - they fix it. It doesn't matter when you bought it, how you broke it, or whatever - if it says CANNONDALE on the side of it and it is broke, then they will fix it for free right now - no questions asked.

When I was in college (before I had the money for ATV's and MX bikes) I had a trusty Cannondale Delta-V 1500 that I rode every single day hard in the woods of southern Illinois. It lugged my 240 pound ass around then as well as it does now. I had only one problem in all that time and the way Cannondale took care of it was second to none. Yamaha could take a big lesson from C'dale about how to treat the people who have already bought one of their machines. (The whole story is in the "I've Had Enough" post on this forum).

The only place C'dale may not be able to hang (yet) is in the MX industry. The big four throw all they have at building state of the art MX bikes, while their ATV's are half-hearted efforts at best. Like moto24 said earlier, ATV's are/were the bottom feeders of tech for the Japs --- until now. I think C'dale caught the Japs with their pants down when they released their new ATV's. C'dales MX bike uses the same technology as their quad. Their MX bike is a semi-flop, but their ATV is kicking everyone else's ass - especially for a first attempt. That is because the Japs throw tons of R&D at new MX bikes, but their ATV's use ten+ year old motors. I think because of what Cannondale has done by releasing the FX is force the Japs to actually build a REAL performance ATV.

I bet we start seeing REAL performance quads from the Japs soon - all because they were FORCED into building them by an AMERICAN company!

well for the mountain bike i was goin by what my friend timmy said he told me that the suck a$$ and it was hard to get parts for them

Above all other things this is truely my greatest concern.... An aluminum frame can not be welded back together or gusted, or fabricated not easily anyways, and most machine shops wont touch them, because it takes a special facilility to heliarch weld aluminum. This is a vary bad thing. Here is a question for you what happens normally when you wreck a newer sport bike even a minor fender bender? Insurance company writes it off and if there is even a slight dent in the frame they don't bother messing with it. The real reason behind this is not only does it effect a two wheeled cycles stearing geometry and other could cause other problems such as counter stearing and off tire wear, you can't see alot of these problems in the beggining. Mostly its because you can't repair those frames easily. Aluminum is quite a different metal and its ductilty and malibility is vary different than any other metal. Now you guys mention that dirtbikes have been using aluminum alloy frames for the last couple of years, true.. but you don't see CR's weighing in at 350+lbs either without rider, and the same goes for the CR's and dirtbikes when they get hit hard thats it your done. Hope you got some serious money to buy an entire new frame because you can't repair those things easily, not like you can an ordinary metal steel frame. Now how many ATV's do you see that have been gusted in the past? rewelded? refabricated? Think about the after effects you have seen on ATV bumpers... Another problem with aluminum is that it torques rather than clean breaks. So you may have a bent off cambered stearing setup and not even no it or your frame may have been twisted from a long jump landing. In my opinion it is a bad thing, real bad thing to put aluminum frames on ATV's landing a 475lb -525lb machine with rider from a 30 foot stretched double or dune is going to hurt those frames. My guess is your going to see alot of waded Cans coming from MX tracks and dunes. Which also could mean bad resale if you own one. This will also make it harder to discover if your purchasing a used Can with a twisted frame, that you may only be able to tell at 60mph that the frame has been torqued. Sorry, but I will pass on the cannondale until it has proven its aluminum alloy frame over several years.

exactly

i never thought about welding the frame

cctman, you tried to sound like you know about metallurgy when you mentioned the ductility and malleability (even though you spelled it wrong) of aluminum. And I saw in another of your posts that you referred to the Cannondale's frame as "cast" aluminum.

1st of all, the frame on the Cannon is not cast aluminum, and I am curious where you came up with the idea that aluminum cannot be welded? I have had a few aluminum components on my quad welded and they have held up just fine since. Welding aluminum is a common occurance and no one should have any problems getting repairs if needed.

2nd of all, with the twin-spar design of the aluminum Cannon frame, it is actually STRONGER than a mild steel frame on Japanese quad. Do you have any idea how easy it is to bend the sub-frame on a 400EX or Raptor?

I find it rather hilarious that some people insist on finding faults with the Cannondale that are un-substantiated. Cannondale is answering the prayers of us serious quad enthusiasts. We have been waiting for a manufacturer to build a high performance quad instead of a trail machine designed for "all around" use. Cannondale has built these quads and they are very proactive about correcting and updating any deficiencies. The Cannondale may not be for everyone, but it's suprising that some can't recognize the innovation they have brought to the sport.

First of all BLodg500RX I'm sorry my spelling doesn't meet your specifications, I'm sure yours is perfect in everyway. Maybe if you weren't so busy thinking of a male model english teacher bent over picking up his dictionary with a pink bow tied around his head you would believe that I'm human and can mispell like everybody else. Second of all I didn't say that you couldn't weld aluminum I said quote "An aluminum frame can not be welded back together or gusted, or fabricated not easily anyways, and most machine shops wont touch them" <---- reread... Second of all you say that aluminum frames are stronger than metal frames? What are you smoking? Aluminum by definition is weaker then metal. And also lighter, but at an expense, this is why most ATV manfactures haven't gambled on them. I'm telling you right now... you are smoking something big time if you think a 400ex vs a cannondale on a 30 foot jump will react the same to the stress of the landing with the same size rider. I know a little more about aluminum and welding then you would probably believe. Aluminum has to be heliarched you can not just set up a regular shop and do your handy work. You have to use other different metals such as argon. If you have ever tried to weld aluminum and had the proper facilities you will notice how difficult it is and how easy it is to match the correct temperature, other wise the aluminum will warp. My step dad has been welding cars for years and I have helped many times. He won't even touch aluminum. Its to tempermental. So go ahead complain about others that are skeptical about buying a Can. And talk trash, whine like a baby. I'm sure Can meant well, and they have raised the bar. Hopefully they will motivate other manufatures to build better machines, but don't bet on those other manufactures going to all aluminum frames. They aren't trustworthy. And Can may have bit off more than they can chew. Only time will tell....But like I said watch the Cans coming back from the MX tracks and dunes carefully.

Just thought I would throw my 2 cents into the ring here about the aluminum frame.
First, aluminum is harder to weld than steel but certainly not impossible or even really difficult if you know how. Aluminum is in a sense weaker than steel, but because it is so much lighter than steel you can use much more of it (have you actually seen the size of the frame components on a C'dale) to where you actually end up with a stronger frame and lighter besides. The reason most manufacturers don't use aluminum is because of the extra time and expense required to fabricate these frames on a mass basis. Also, it's not really that specialized of a welding setup to weld aluminum. Heliarc was mentioned, but I believe that is nothing more than a brand name of a tig welder which any welding shop worth a crap would have at least one of.
Believe me folks, don't let the fact that the frames are made of aluminum scare you away. It is very possible to weld aluminum back to original strength or stronger. I have watched my Dad weld two pop cans together with a tig welder without burning through so I would think he could ace a frame.

I think you are a little off the mark. cannon has been a top bicycle builder for years and probably the best there is. If you don't think the mountain bike aluminum take major abuse you are wrong. I can't imagine a company would spend millions and forget to test the rigidness of their frame over and over and over,etc.

cctman, you said "aluminum is weaker than metal".Isn't aluminum a type of metal? You also said " you have to use other different metals such as argon". When did argon switch from being an inert gas to a metal? Also, aluminum when used like Cannondale does, will not torque,It will break. Steel will bend.

Now as to how strong aluminum is. Have you ever seen the movie Top Gun? It's really amazing, I have worked on the flight deck of a carrier for many a moon. I can say this with absolute certainty that just about 95% of all structural components of that 50 ton aircraft that smashes down on that steel deck at 200 MPH+ is made of aluminum. They can take it. Why can't a quad hitting at a much lower speed and and quite a bit lighter do the same thing? Your reasoning is beyond me.

Cannondale puts its frames through all kinds of test. From what I hear they put sensors on the frames and then the breaking and bending begins. They get read-outs for how much force was applied when a certian section broke ect. They know what their frames and suspension components can and can't handle. They have been working with aluminum for a long time. I think they know how to make it very strong. Ever hear about heat-treating? I imagine they have found the best ways ( not most cost efective ways, thats not their style ) to make the strongest aluminum components for Bikes, Motorcycles, and Quads. As far as landings from big jumps,well the suspension plays a big role in how much force is transferred through the frame. If you put 1987 worn out 250x (LOL) shocks on it and jump a 65ft triple a few times something is bound to give other than the shocks. But thats why Cannondale puts high quality shocks on the quads. Now in a crash I dont know,but I would have to think Cannondale somehow simulates this as well. Minehunter thanks for the info on aircraft, thats truly amazing. I enjoy hearing things like that. 95% aluminum + lots of power = High Flying & Very Fast. Its a bird, no its a plane, no its a C-Dale! HA!. Ive always wondered what would happen if a tire blew when landing, or do they even hold air ( like a run flat or something ) just wondering.

cctman, you did not let me down with your response to my post. It figures you would resort to name calling and bashing someones character instead of using facts to argue your point. Instead you throw out some more ludricous comments that prove you know very little about metals, gases, and quads. I won't return your personal attacks and you have no basis for an intelligent debate.

If you can't recognize the innovation, design, engineering, and customer service that Cannondale has put into their quads then so be it.

Blodg500RX COOL RIDE! cctman have you got a chance to ride a Cannondale yet? If so tell us what you think about the handling,suspension,ergos,and POWER!

CCTMAN,

First of all i want to say that when you said "gusted" that proved you didn't know your A$$ from a hole in the ground when it came to metal working. Dont say its a typo you said it more than once [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]. Its "gusseted". Anyway, i want to ride a cdale so bad so i can talk about it. Everyone just needs to calm the hell down, cant we all just get along?? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Just a couple things 400EX uses mild steel for their frames. The Yeild strength for these steels is around 44,000psi The tensile strength is around 53,000psi. Here is the same information for some heat treated aluminum:

6061-T6
Yeild 39,000psi Ultimate 50,000 psi

7075-T6
Yeild 73,000psi Ultimate 82,000 psi

As you can see depending on application there are types of aluminum that are actually stronger then certain types of steel. Steel bends a lot more before it breaks than aluminum (steel has more elongation) so there are pluses and miuses to the use of each material.
As far as welding goes, It depends on the type of aluminum. TIG welding aluminum takes some practice but is fairly easy. TIG stands for Tungsten Inert Gas and uses Argon as the inert gas.
Automotive companies are using more and more aluminum, Audi actually uses it for the frame in their A-8.

Lets not bash each other.

Well I guess only time will tell how these frames hold up. If Can proves that its aluminum frames can hold up, then other manufactures may decide to follow, but my personal opinion is that ATV's have not been around long enough to test them. I think thats funny that you pointed out about aircraft. I spent 5 1/2 years in USAF. At a logistics base, and your right about the aluminum on the aircraft. But it is layed in sheets and help together by steel rivots, and titanium parts. The aluminum is just the outside covering. There is no way the entire aircraft(espially fighters) could be made up of all aluminum. It would fall apart. There is alot more than meets the eye when dealing with aircraft. Some of the other aircrafts such as the older B24 liberators and such were made up of a greater % of aluminum than todays, but they were bombers and didn't take on the tight turns and G's of fighters. You will find that many fighters today are moving more to Titanium parts than anything else for support. But that is besides the point.

crhye250r...you can take the word guseted and stick it up your a$$ for all I care. I helped gusset my own frame on my R before we powdercoated years ago. I can even show you a nice image of my handywork if you want, but you probably wouldn't believe its actuall me in the picture. Oh and don't ask ... cause I ain't going to amuse you..


Blodg500RX ...sorry I got to you man, maybe next time you will learn to keep your mouth shut!! HeHe!As far as "ludricous comments " go they have nothing to do with intelligence or knowledge of gasses, metals, or quads. IT has to do with psychology. By the way, I was probably riding quads before you learned to stop peeing yourself, and could care less about your sexual preferances.

CdaleRacer... A few of the guys I ride with in Indianna run the local circuit. There opinions differ from mine. One rides a Can. another rides an EX, and the rest including myself prefer hopped up 250R's. The guy that owns the Can hasn't ridden with us vary much, so we haven't spent a great deal of time on his quad. The one time he did ride it with us we were hitting tight woods. He hung near the back most of the time mainly because he didn't want his new quad sprayed with rock and dirt, but he kept stalling it on the steap slower hills. When we finally switched off in Attica and rode a little bit on each others quads, I liked the feel of it and the mid range, but I didn't like the fact that it still felt alot like a 4 stroke still. I had heard you guys talk about the 2 stroke like feel to it, but it just wasn't a two stroke. After we finished the day out, most of us liked certain features of it, but agreed it was deffinately no pro 250R and I among them was a little more skeptical of things on it like the frame strength and such. Some of the guys I ride with I admit are die hard Honda fans, and they are waiting for this supposed new Honda ATV coming out soon for racing. But the general consensus from most of us was wait and see how the Can holds up, and none of us were that motivated to dump our R's right away and go get a Can though.

cctman, where did you read in my post that you got to me? I only said that I will not return your childish insults. I proved that you have no basis for an argument, and several others have posted the same comments. All I am saying is that you are not going to recognize that you are wrong so why waste my time arguing? Your comments surely didn't bother me and I find it amusing that you don't realize that it only makes you look even more immature.

I doubt if you have been riding quads longer than I have since I started riding ATV's before quads even existed. I had a 1983 ATC250R 3-wheeler and my first brand new ATV was a 1986 200X 3-wheeler. I have owned a TRX250X, several TRX250R's, and you can see my current TRX250R with 500cc motor in the link in my signature. I almost bought a Cannon this spring but am waiting for the release of the moto version.

Regardless of your age or riding experience, your posts make you seem like an immature teenager. Also, I was married in 1993 and have an awesome 7 year old son so it looks like you were wrong again. I will not respond to this post any further unless you have something of substance to discuss.

CCTman,

You are a piece of work. You lose your arguments (to people who actually KNOW something) so you resort to name calling and bashing. Most of those guys you are being disrespectful to have been around awhile and actually make useful posts on this board. By contrast, I have yet to see anything in one of your posts that is either useful to others or intelligent.

Your ideas about aluminum are amazingly off base. Just because your stepdad can't weld it means no one can??? I read in one of your ealier posts that the C'dale frame was cast!?!? LOL! That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard and it is an accurate indication of what you actually know about metallurgy - NOTHING.

Guess how C'dale made that frame (since it isn't cast) - they welded it!!!

Maybe your stepdad is an idiot. Ever think of that? Sounds like it might run in the family.

cctman, you must of been a security policeman or a clerk of some sort while you were in the Air Force. Anyone, and I mean anyone who has ever worked on any type of aircraft knows that you absolutly Do Not use steel rivets with aluminum. If you do that you are setting yourself up for massive corrosion problems. I too did a stint or two at Air Force Logistics Centers. As a matter of fact between the times I was in Naval Aviation I was in the 2951st and the 2952nd Combat Logistics Support Squadron as an aircraft mechanic. The only only aircraft that is heavy into titanium is the SR71. The others have some titanium in them, but the structural portion of the aircraft is definatly Aluminum. I'm talking about the wing spars, longerons and ribs. So get a grip and learn before you write.

Cannondale is now the king of Hi-Performance. No if ands or buts about it. This argument could go on forever.