The problem is that very few people, voters, are interested enough in anything but TV or other mindless entertainment to do anything about it. They expect their government to be taking care of them. And is the government ever taking them. Mix in some fear and not only do they agree public lands should be sold off to educate rural children so the government can continue the Iraq folly instead of admitting a mistake was made but they also relinquish their civil liberties at the same time. Ever look at civil service salaries and benefits? Why would those people want to upset that applecart? Welcome to Orwell's 1984.

 

You sure have that right. People need to get more involved, beyond just marking a ballot. I've held public office and have a feel for what happens. It was a local office, but the same things apply at all levels of government. After you are elected, you get very little input from the people who elected you. Most of your "guidance" comes from the bureaucrats on staff, special interests and from fellow elected officials. Believe me, that can be more than a little discomforting. You really want to hear more from the people who elected you. I urge people to talk to those seeking your vote. After the election, back them up by speaking out at public meetings. Be rational and logical, not strident. You will find that you are being listened to.

 

Very frickin well said!!!!!

I have done my best to not have the local experience you have (somehow I just dont want to be labled that way LMFAO) but have many friends and others I know who have and your point is one most all have made.

It seems that the only people contacting their political leaders on a local level are those with complaints, and those with something to gain, but from what I have seen and learned its just like you said about the rest.

Maybe one day the average guy will prove georged wrong, and this will not be the absolute truth
But somehow I keep believing that until there isnt enough cash flow in what remains of the typical middle class home to keep the kids fed and in new imported junk everything, and a big ole gas guzzling SUV that never even see's dirt in the driveway its just not going to happen.

Hmmm did I say that before in a different thread? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

 

Been that way for some time; take a look at scary personal debt and negative personal savings levels. Escape from reality and reliance on self-serving politicians is now the American Dream.

 

George we seem to do that (perfect lead in etc) so well I have to wonder if anyone is catching it LOL

It is totally by accident though.

Still I have to admit I cant believe the amount of people who either are not noticing this at all, and even how those that do are not really thinking of or willing to get involved with doing anything about it.

I dont want to change the direction of this thread any, but this just really boggles my mind, and when I hear so called professionals discuss how the left is crazy (well I wont argue with that in general LOL) and that any discussion about problems with the economy or our trade imbalances are only hidden attacks on the current pres administration (and I know for many this is at the root of their intent but still) and claim that our economy is really absolutely terrific and those who disagree are nothing but doom and gloom mongers.

How can these people expect us to put them and their party in any higher standing than the directionless and out of touch competing party? I mean if all the potential and current politicians think were little more than a bunch of mindless sheep following their every command without any thoughts of our own or abilities to see thru all the smoke screens of both sides just what hope is there for the future?

 

"The problem is that very few people, voters, are interested enough in anything but TV or other mindless entertainment to do anything about it. " (Georged)

Calling people "mindless" sounds a little harsh. As I said, it's better not to get too strident. You just set yourself up for retaliation by people who see ATV riding as "mindless entertainment."

 

I do get that, but do you realize your comment only provided additional substance to the claim?

And in all honesty I cant argue much on the mindless comment since so many are acting on generations of conditioning and just "what we think were supposed to do" rather than well thought out decisions.

Were all guility of it to some extent no matter what we think, and even if you want to label our sport as mindless (I know some already think were nuts anyhow) all you need to do is relate that to the amount of people who enjoy it v/s the amount who are willing to do a damn thing to protect or make it better (even for themselves).

Is it just that due to the various events of the last 50+ years (long before I was around too lol) that we have become accustomed to allowing or expecting certain things to be handled for us? Maybe there its not an accident that the majority of americans just go about their daily lives with little time or desire to put in an effort for anything outside their "little circle".

Maybe its a good thing I question considerably more "conspiracy theories" than I buy into because it seems like somehow we not expected to be bothered at all, and just rely on the govt to handle everything (like removing our sorry azzes from a disaster that we specifically chose to remain in the path of etc).

I see people complaining all the time about not many people taking charge or responsibility for their own (everything) and that is something that it seems was not completely a choice, but was somehow created by many events and changes.

Maybe instead of just finding points to debate on this we would be better to openly discuss the many ways or things that have happened that have lead to this current situation.

I will start off with the whole insane idea of "political correctness" as I believe this more recent problem is little more than an attempt to stiffle the general public from exercizing their right to free speach.

 

True. I use mine mostly for chores on my own property and am prepared to admit anything other than that is pretty mindless. I have other hobbies that are equally mindless but most, other than astronomy, also produce something tangible in a positive manner.

That's my rationalization - if it accomplishes something tangible, I can rationalize it. Even my wife didn't believe shelling out $7500 for a quad made much sense when firewood is $170/cord delivered and stacked and I can hire laborers to pick and shovel and cut brush and push wheelbarrows all day long for $12/hr. She didn't even buy the fact that no health club membership for three years would pay for the quad.

I plead no contest to mindlessness. But I'm very active in watching how politicians spend my money while turning my country into a police state and calling them on it. And that's the only thing that gets the attention of our elected leadership, people speaking out. Unfortunately, there aren't enough people speaking out to make any difference until some politician screws up really bad. Then the next self-serving public servant takes his/her place at the trough.

Consider that 35% of Americans pay no taxes, the next 30% pay minimal taxes, 30% pay normal taxes and that 5% of taxpayers pay 60% of all personal income taxes. The politicians have structured public mindlessness with 65% of the population not having to care what they (politicians) do, allowing the average American to watch over four hours of TV each day.

http://www.tvturnoff.org/images/facts&figs/factsheets/FactsFigs.pdf#search='average%20daily%20hours%20of %20TV%20watching'

Sorry for the rant, but I do have a poor opinion of the general public's focus on taking care of business.

 

George thanks for the laugh as your method of rationalizing was interesting, but I guess we all have to make up some bs to appease the boss or errr wiff.

Only thing I think you forgot was how many potential future visists to the shrink you would save by releasing all the stress created by our "fearless" political leaders and how the masses (mindless or not lol) react to them.

Stress relief is a major benefit of riding no matter your chosen machine or skill level etc.

Anyhoo I wanted to comment on this alsoI do find stats very interesting, and I understand how they can be used to make totally opposite points just by how they are interpeted (I think I am not the only one to have done this lol), but just like a medical report not everyone is able to come up with the right decision or understanding by raw numbers alone (myself included at times).

First thing that I thought of when considering those numbers is that since a large number of Americans do not work (under age, unwilling, unable, etc etc) are these numbers for all citizens as a whole no matter of any status etc, or are they only for those from 18-65 etc?

The next thing was even more interesting since I think most would agree that more than 90% of the wealth in this country is held by less than 10% of the population, is that the top 5% only paying 60% of the tax (remember this is only income tax, and does not include the other few thousand other taxes) but also is holding over 90% of the $$$.

Another issue that immediately came to mind was that most of the 30% of those who are paying nearly 40% of the total are also funding the wealth of the top 5% thru their spending as well as funding the large chunk of the tax collected.

I then compared this to the fact that many I have talked with in both the 30% and 5% groups just accept the fact that the 35% and other 30% groups (the one paying min etc) are never going to be upping the amount or percentage put into personal income tax, and also that the 35% group if anything will be growing.

Wow if your still following me here then consider that the 30% group which is contributing a large amount and percentage of tax collected is expected by many to actually shrink in size as their incomes dwindle as a group, others joing the minimal paying group (boy is that what downsizing american jobs really does lol) will be supporting a smaller amount and percentage in the future.

I know george and a few others should be following (or even ahead at this point) me as they are far more experienced, and knowledgable in economics than I am, but as this continues (the redistributing of wealth, and tax burden) and those in the middle and upper middle class see their wealth and quality of life continue to dwindle (as well as there percent of tax paid as a whole) just who is going to support the top and bottom of this system (a house isnt much without a foundation, and a roof is it).

The next logical question is just which of the two very flawed types of tax thinking will fail worse (the Rep's idea of dwindle down, or the dems tax and rape everyone) or better yet just how long till the only thing beyond a complete new start (total redistribution of all wealth or new govt etc) or some sort of total police state or a change to socialist state?

I know it sounds like something that wouldnt happen to "me" etc but the totally unbalanced way we all are taxed in comparison to our total wealth, and the continued elimination of the middle class (the new working poor?) in combination with a host of new laws over the last 20+ years that are allowing additional spending and deficit, and continued controll and pressure on the working taxpaying citizens while only increasing the amount of non tax paying citizens etc isnt going to lead to a bountifull future for anyone.

Give it some though and really think about it, and let everyone know if you see things differently etc.

 

We've been heading towards a two-tiered society, the haves and the have-nots, since politicians began buying votes with public money in the late '60s. Selling public land to pursue aggression based on contrived fear is plainly symptomatic of a declining empire. The general public is still obsessed with maintaining a standard of living that's rapidly going by the wayside and pays little attention to our fiscal condition. If you like statistics, just take the publicized GDP, subtract deficit spending and debt service for a negative GDP. Then look at the expansion of our money supply at a rate twice that of publicized GDP to furnish Petrodollars on a debt basis. Not a pretty picture and becoming our way of life.

All I can say is I hope those who support or ignore our insane fiscal and foreign policies are amassing substantial personal wealth to carry them, their children and grandchildren into a global society where the US is a two-tiered service economy. A free government ride, flipping burgers or assembling consumer products isn't going to buy shiny new ATVs.