Read this and think
Sep 6, 2007 | 11:35 AM
#1
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Trailblazer
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Read this and think
Please read this and take a long look in the mirror at yourself and family. Is this you?
ATV Instructor Sums It Up: "Wear your gear and get trained"
Kevin Frantum has taught the basics of ATV safety to more than a thousand Marines at Camp Pendleton during the past few years. A couple things have become very clear to him. "Everybody thinks they can drive a car, ride a motorcycle and ride an ATV," he says. When he watches them get behind the handlebars, though, it's a whole other story.
"People start out thinking ATVs are toys," he explains. "They think ATVs won't tip over, for example. They don't seem to have much respect for them." Frantum, who also teaches advanced off-road courses off-base on weekends as a business, says that it isn't just kids who need an attitude readjustment, but adults, as well. "Anything that will do thirty-five miles per hour or better over terrain is something you need to learn how to handle. Many of those ATVs have 400cc-plus engines, but people don't look at them like high-horsepower, high-performance vehicles." Part of the lack of respect may derive from the fact that you don't need a separate license for ATVs.
Yet, he says, lots of ATV riders seem content to learn by trial and error. The errors aren't always minor. An avid and experienced rider, Frantum has seen plenty of mishaps. He often rides in the desert and has been first on the scene a few times. When the helmet comes off, he can always tell when it's a local service member. "I had a young Marine almost hit my brand new camper once," he recalls. The Marine's ATV skidded to a halt twenty feet from the camper, but the Marine broke his collarbone.
Frantum saw a teenaged girl seriously injure her back on a recent Sunday. "She came by and caught a rut," he explains. "Most people get back up. She just lay there." Frantum, who always carries a cell phone, called for an ambulance. His wife, an instructor and a licensed vocational nurse, is well-equipped to tend injured riders until the ambulance arrives.
The causes of mishaps? Excessive speed and "just plain carelessness." He doesn't think terrain is necessarily the problem. "You just need the right techniques for the terrain," he says. He has had a couple himself, the most recent when he stalled on a steep hill. As always, his protective gear paid off.
"A lot of riders test their limits," he says, and sometimes that test goes too far. "Or complacency sets in. They think, 'I've ridden this trail a hundred times.'" But terrain changes. Ruts appear or get deeper. Another common error is to slack off on the PPE when the temperatures start to climb. But he insists that six things are mandatory and not weather-dependent: helmet, goggles, gloves, long pants, long sleeves and boots that cover the ankle.
He is puzzled by the trial-and-error attitude, especially because ATV manufacturers offer rebate incentives, ranging from $50 to $150 and free training, if new owners will get training.
The ATV safety class is four and a half hours on the range, punctuated by several 10-to-15-minute lectures. He teaches the basics: getting on, starting, turning, stopping, crossing obstacles and hills. He uses 4-by-4s as the obstacles. In all these exercises we are teaching correct techniques. After the class, he says, "A lot of the students tell me they learned quite a bit."
If you haven't taken a class, he can sum up his experience in six words: "Wear your gear and get trained." Riding ATVs is a lot of fun. Wrecking them and getting hurt isn't.
The person that was interviewed is a Chief Instructor/Trainer for MSF and ATVSI, as well as a retired Marine Corps Combat Motorcycle Instructor.
ATV Instructor Sums It Up: "Wear your gear and get trained"
Kevin Frantum has taught the basics of ATV safety to more than a thousand Marines at Camp Pendleton during the past few years. A couple things have become very clear to him. "Everybody thinks they can drive a car, ride a motorcycle and ride an ATV," he says. When he watches them get behind the handlebars, though, it's a whole other story.
"People start out thinking ATVs are toys," he explains. "They think ATVs won't tip over, for example. They don't seem to have much respect for them." Frantum, who also teaches advanced off-road courses off-base on weekends as a business, says that it isn't just kids who need an attitude readjustment, but adults, as well. "Anything that will do thirty-five miles per hour or better over terrain is something you need to learn how to handle. Many of those ATVs have 400cc-plus engines, but people don't look at them like high-horsepower, high-performance vehicles." Part of the lack of respect may derive from the fact that you don't need a separate license for ATVs.
Yet, he says, lots of ATV riders seem content to learn by trial and error. The errors aren't always minor. An avid and experienced rider, Frantum has seen plenty of mishaps. He often rides in the desert and has been first on the scene a few times. When the helmet comes off, he can always tell when it's a local service member. "I had a young Marine almost hit my brand new camper once," he recalls. The Marine's ATV skidded to a halt twenty feet from the camper, but the Marine broke his collarbone.
Frantum saw a teenaged girl seriously injure her back on a recent Sunday. "She came by and caught a rut," he explains. "Most people get back up. She just lay there." Frantum, who always carries a cell phone, called for an ambulance. His wife, an instructor and a licensed vocational nurse, is well-equipped to tend injured riders until the ambulance arrives.
The causes of mishaps? Excessive speed and "just plain carelessness." He doesn't think terrain is necessarily the problem. "You just need the right techniques for the terrain," he says. He has had a couple himself, the most recent when he stalled on a steep hill. As always, his protective gear paid off.
"A lot of riders test their limits," he says, and sometimes that test goes too far. "Or complacency sets in. They think, 'I've ridden this trail a hundred times.'" But terrain changes. Ruts appear or get deeper. Another common error is to slack off on the PPE when the temperatures start to climb. But he insists that six things are mandatory and not weather-dependent: helmet, goggles, gloves, long pants, long sleeves and boots that cover the ankle.
He is puzzled by the trial-and-error attitude, especially because ATV manufacturers offer rebate incentives, ranging from $50 to $150 and free training, if new owners will get training.
The ATV safety class is four and a half hours on the range, punctuated by several 10-to-15-minute lectures. He teaches the basics: getting on, starting, turning, stopping, crossing obstacles and hills. He uses 4-by-4s as the obstacles. In all these exercises we are teaching correct techniques. After the class, he says, "A lot of the students tell me they learned quite a bit."
If you haven't taken a class, he can sum up his experience in six words: "Wear your gear and get trained." Riding ATVs is a lot of fun. Wrecking them and getting hurt isn't.
The person that was interviewed is a Chief Instructor/Trainer for MSF and ATVSI, as well as a retired Marine Corps Combat Motorcycle Instructor.
Sep 6, 2007 | 02:02 PM
#2
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Read this and think
Great article.
The off-road community isn't getting trained...because the vast majority of that same 100% divided community...have absolutely no desire to be trained, in the first place! (I'd like to make it more simple than that; yet you just <u>can't</u>).[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
Kids, adults; it doesn't matter who you refer to; none of these people are going to be led to water...unless they are darn well forced to bend down and drink it, when they get there!(service members and rescue personnel are almost a non-issue; as we all know that they have absolutely no choice in the matter).
The question seemingly being begged here is this:
What orv non-profit leader already leaching off the atv community...is going to put his or her non-accountable 'career' out there on the line in any kind of gut-check call out for across-the-board mandatory hands-on training?
Would any of these "pay-no-attention-to-that-man-behind-the curtain" Oz-like 'leaders' even dare extend this mandate into the currently 'taboo' world of UTVs?
And just how long would their cozy little 'we right off every weekend' tax sheltered operations last "membership-wise"...if everybody in the off-road community were to demand a first-ever stand-up-like-a-man leader's head...after he or she insisted that the community darn well <u>pay</u> for these classes out of their own cheaparse pockets? (seeing that the concept of 'pay-to-play' is virtually non-existant in the average 21st century enthusiast's mindset).
I have supported the first ever introduction of size appropriate atv training in my area (out of my own pocket); as have many others.
And it's high time that we started shoving this requirement down some people's throats minus the so-called current 'leaders' we have both politically and 'monetarily' flat out afraid to do so.
The off-road community isn't getting trained...because the vast majority of that same 100% divided community...have absolutely no desire to be trained, in the first place! (I'd like to make it more simple than that; yet you just <u>can't</u>).[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
Kids, adults; it doesn't matter who you refer to; none of these people are going to be led to water...unless they are darn well forced to bend down and drink it, when they get there!(service members and rescue personnel are almost a non-issue; as we all know that they have absolutely no choice in the matter).
The question seemingly being begged here is this:
What orv non-profit leader already leaching off the atv community...is going to put his or her non-accountable 'career' out there on the line in any kind of gut-check call out for across-the-board mandatory hands-on training?
Would any of these "pay-no-attention-to-that-man-behind-the curtain" Oz-like 'leaders' even dare extend this mandate into the currently 'taboo' world of UTVs?
And just how long would their cozy little 'we right off every weekend' tax sheltered operations last "membership-wise"...if everybody in the off-road community were to demand a first-ever stand-up-like-a-man leader's head...after he or she insisted that the community darn well <u>pay</u> for these classes out of their own cheaparse pockets? (seeing that the concept of 'pay-to-play' is virtually non-existant in the average 21st century enthusiast's mindset).
I have supported the first ever introduction of size appropriate atv training in my area (out of my own pocket); as have many others.
And it's high time that we started shoving this requirement down some people's throats minus the so-called current 'leaders' we have both politically and 'monetarily' flat out afraid to do so.
Sep 6, 2007 | 02:22 PM
#3
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Trailblazer
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Read this and think
California already is taking steps to reel in the stupidity:
ATV Safety Requirements
All-terrain vehicle (ATV) operators under 18 years of age must comply with the following California Vehicle Code requirements when operating an ATV on public lands. The Off-Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation Division (OHMVRD) currently provides funding for ATV safety certificate training for those age 6 through 17. For more information and to sign up for training contact the ATV Safety Institute at (800-887-2887).
CONDITIONS FOR OPERATING: MINORS
No person under the age of 18 years shall operate an all-terrain vehicle on public lands of this state unless the person satisfies one of the following conditions:
. (a) The person is taking a prescribed safety training course under the direct supervision of a certified all-terrain vehicle safety instructor.
. (b) The person is under the direct supervision of an adult who has in their possession an appropriate safety certificate issued by this state, or issued under the authority of another state.
. (c) The person has in possession an appropriate safety certificate issued by this state or issued under the authority of another state (CVC 38503).
CONDITIONS FOR OPERATING: ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS
No person under 14 years of age shall operate an all-terrain vehicle on public lands of this state unless the person satisfies one of the conditions set forth in Section 38503 and, in addition, is accompanied by and under the direct supervision of a parent or guardian or is accompanied by and under the direct supervision of an adult who is authorized by the parent or guardian (CVC 38504).
38504.1. (a) Neither a parent or guardian of a child who is under 14 years of age, nor an adult who is authorized by the parent or guardian to supervise that child shall grant permission to, or knowingly allow, that child to operate an all-terrain vehicle in a manner that violates Section 38504.
(b) A person convicted of a violation of subdivision (a) is punishable as follows:
(1) For a first conviction, the court shall either impose a fine of one hundred twenty-five dollars ($125) or order the person to take or retake and complete an all-terrain vehicle safety training course pursuant to Section 38501. If ordered to take or retake and complete the safety training course, the person shall provide the court a copy of the all-terrain vehicles safety certificate issued as a result of that completion.
(2) For a second conviction, a fine of not less than one hundred twenty-five dollars ($125) nor more than two hundred fifty dollars ($250).
(3) For a third or any subsequent conviction, a fine of not less than two hundred fifty dollars ($250) nor more than five hundred dollars ($500).
SEC. 2. Section 38504.2 is added to the Vehicle Code, to read: 38504.2. If a person under 14 years of age was not properly supervised or accompanied in accordance with Section 38504, and the parent or guardian of that child or the adult who was authorized by the parent or guardian to supervise or accompany that child is in violation of Section 38504.1, upon a conviction pursuant to Section 38504, the court may order that child to attend and complete the all-terrain vehicle safety training course accompanied by the person who violated Section 38504.1. If so ordered, the child under 14 years of age shall provide the court a copy of the all-terrain vehicles safety certificate issued as a result of that completion.
ATV Safety Requirements
All-terrain vehicle (ATV) operators under 18 years of age must comply with the following California Vehicle Code requirements when operating an ATV on public lands. The Off-Highway Motor Vehicle Recreation Division (OHMVRD) currently provides funding for ATV safety certificate training for those age 6 through 17. For more information and to sign up for training contact the ATV Safety Institute at (800-887-2887).
CONDITIONS FOR OPERATING: MINORS
No person under the age of 18 years shall operate an all-terrain vehicle on public lands of this state unless the person satisfies one of the following conditions:
. (a) The person is taking a prescribed safety training course under the direct supervision of a certified all-terrain vehicle safety instructor.
. (b) The person is under the direct supervision of an adult who has in their possession an appropriate safety certificate issued by this state, or issued under the authority of another state.
. (c) The person has in possession an appropriate safety certificate issued by this state or issued under the authority of another state (CVC 38503).
CONDITIONS FOR OPERATING: ADDITIONAL REQUIREMENTS
No person under 14 years of age shall operate an all-terrain vehicle on public lands of this state unless the person satisfies one of the conditions set forth in Section 38503 and, in addition, is accompanied by and under the direct supervision of a parent or guardian or is accompanied by and under the direct supervision of an adult who is authorized by the parent or guardian (CVC 38504).
38504.1. (a) Neither a parent or guardian of a child who is under 14 years of age, nor an adult who is authorized by the parent or guardian to supervise that child shall grant permission to, or knowingly allow, that child to operate an all-terrain vehicle in a manner that violates Section 38504.
(b) A person convicted of a violation of subdivision (a) is punishable as follows:
(1) For a first conviction, the court shall either impose a fine of one hundred twenty-five dollars ($125) or order the person to take or retake and complete an all-terrain vehicle safety training course pursuant to Section 38501. If ordered to take or retake and complete the safety training course, the person shall provide the court a copy of the all-terrain vehicles safety certificate issued as a result of that completion.
(2) For a second conviction, a fine of not less than one hundred twenty-five dollars ($125) nor more than two hundred fifty dollars ($250).
(3) For a third or any subsequent conviction, a fine of not less than two hundred fifty dollars ($250) nor more than five hundred dollars ($500).
SEC. 2. Section 38504.2 is added to the Vehicle Code, to read: 38504.2. If a person under 14 years of age was not properly supervised or accompanied in accordance with Section 38504, and the parent or guardian of that child or the adult who was authorized by the parent or guardian to supervise or accompany that child is in violation of Section 38504.1, upon a conviction pursuant to Section 38504, the court may order that child to attend and complete the all-terrain vehicle safety training course accompanied by the person who violated Section 38504.1. If so ordered, the child under 14 years of age shall provide the court a copy of the all-terrain vehicles safety certificate issued as a result of that completion.
Sep 6, 2007 | 03:03 PM
#4
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Read this and think
Originally posted by: MSGT
California already is taking steps to reel in the stupidity:
For more information and to sign up for training contact the ATV Safety Institute at (800-887-2887).
CONDITIONS FOR OPERATING: MINORS
No person under the age of 18 years shall operate an all-terrain vehicle on public lands of this state unless the person satisfies one of the following conditions:
. (a) The person is taking a prescribed safety training course under the direct supervision of a certified all-terrain vehicle safety instructor...."
I called the ASI and was informed that this was by no means a 'hands-on' requirement. Evidently, all these kids are required to do is show up and 'watch' the class; score a minimum score on some written test and walk out the door with their 'training' certificate.
Whether this is true or not: I have no idea. I can only go by what the lady on the other end of the phone informed me of toay.
If this is indeed true...I'm not very darn impressed. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]\
BTW, she also informed me that the kid's training was at no charge and that the adult class were $125.00. These people were so darn busy that you had to wait for 'the next available operator'. Who pray tell is paying for all this and how many kids are bringing 'appropriately sized' ASI guideline-type quads in to be trained on in the first place? (with the larger question being...why are kids allowed to sit on the sidelines if any quads are being 'loaned out' to others...and does ASI get the same money from 'whoever' for a hands-on trained kid as they do a side-line watcher?).
Pretty simple questions, in my opinion.....
California already is taking steps to reel in the stupidity:
For more information and to sign up for training contact the ATV Safety Institute at (800-887-2887).
CONDITIONS FOR OPERATING: MINORS
No person under the age of 18 years shall operate an all-terrain vehicle on public lands of this state unless the person satisfies one of the following conditions:
. (a) The person is taking a prescribed safety training course under the direct supervision of a certified all-terrain vehicle safety instructor...."
I called the ASI and was informed that this was by no means a 'hands-on' requirement. Evidently, all these kids are required to do is show up and 'watch' the class; score a minimum score on some written test and walk out the door with their 'training' certificate.
Whether this is true or not: I have no idea. I can only go by what the lady on the other end of the phone informed me of toay.
If this is indeed true...I'm not very darn impressed. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]\
BTW, she also informed me that the kid's training was at no charge and that the adult class were $125.00. These people were so darn busy that you had to wait for 'the next available operator'. Who pray tell is paying for all this and how many kids are bringing 'appropriately sized' ASI guideline-type quads in to be trained on in the first place? (with the larger question being...why are kids allowed to sit on the sidelines if any quads are being 'loaned out' to others...and does ASI get the same money from 'whoever' for a hands-on trained kid as they do a side-line watcher?).
Pretty simple questions, in my opinion.....
Sep 6, 2007 | 07:44 PM
#5
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Trailblazer
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Read this and think
I too called ATVSI for some clarification on "observers" since my program is on a military base, and we only teach adults - no observers. Evidently, the rules vary by state, and (I think your sig says Michigan?) your state is different from mine in its program structure. Here (CA) they get a certificate that says "observer" if they showed up on a non-appropriate sized ATV, and watched rather than ride. The state seems to be happy with that, rather than send them away untrained.
The loaner ATV's are for:
* the instructor to demonstrate the exercises.
* to allow family members t take the class simultaneously.
* to substitute if a student's ATV becomes inoperable during the course.
* to train a student before they take delivery of a purchased ATV.
* to train a student who does not have a way to transport his/her ATV to class.
Not all programs have a full selection or quantity of loaner ATV's.
I have two, and they belong to the Navy for demos and course maintenance.
The loaner ATV's are for:
* the instructor to demonstrate the exercises.
* to allow family members t take the class simultaneously.
* to substitute if a student's ATV becomes inoperable during the course.
* to train a student before they take delivery of a purchased ATV.
* to train a student who does not have a way to transport his/her ATV to class.
Not all programs have a full selection or quantity of loaner ATV's.
I have two, and they belong to the Navy for demos and course maintenance.
Sep 6, 2007 | 08:48 PM
#6
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Read this and think
Originally posted by: MSGT
"...Evidently, the rules vary by state, and (I think your sig says Michigan?) your state is different from mine in its program structure..."
It is in that the ASI was basically 'brushed aside' here in Michigan when a size rather than age appropriate program was ramrodded through by subsidy seekers. There were instructors (some formerly ASI) who tried to slay the proverbial fat subsidized hog here by convincing the state that ASI couldn't 'possibly' coexist side-by-side with their new-fangled training program. The state agreed 100% on the need for size-appropriate training...then brought in the amount of people actually needed (qualified or not) to start training these kids in greater numbers...leaving these former ASI trainers with little to no state or national backing whatsoever.(more kids trained with no hands-on experience required as a compromise; as you see happening in your state).
The irony here being that if these instructors had all at least backed ASI as an 'alternative'... instead of shooting the moon on tasty-looking subsidies (these guys are still trying to TRIPLE the subsidy fund at the expense of all other Michigan orv programs) they might have all still been teaching ASI and making a buck at it...instead of calling the state of Michigan every name in the book for filling an emergency need in regards to put a bandaid on a very screwed up previous program.
I spoke with someone from the the ASI during the period in which where they were being shoved aside here and they obviously weren't any more impressed with what was going on than I was at the time.
"....Here (CA) they get a certificate that says "observer" if they showed up on a non-appropriate sized ATV, and watched rather than ride. The state seems to be happy with that, rather than send them away untrained...."
The state of Michigan seems to feel pretty much the same way; yet with no requirement that they show up with any quad whatsoever....which led me to my previous question(s)
Is every kid who attends these classes required to have their own atv (loaned or owned) by their side during class...and if not...how does the state distinguish as to who actually 'observed' the class and who did not? (in other words, I observed kids in a recent boating safety class who didn't pay attention one lick the whole time...and then got 'tutoring' afterwards to make darn sure that they assed the course!).
And again, I wonder if the ASI gets payed the same for each kid taught out of this subsidized fund....whether these kids are 'observers' or not?
"...Not all programs have a full selection or quantity of loaner ATV's..."
Which throws this ball back in the "size specific" court.....and programs that basically demand that kids (parents) darn well get their machines with their kids on them to class come heck or high water; that they pay for these classes in full and 'by default'....that no kid rides anywhere without hands-on training to begin with.
If orv leadership had the guts to stand for zero tolerance enforcement and the threat of impoundment/heavy fines for violating the above; our problems would 'almost' go away overnight. Yet as it is; as we see with CA's program and many others....everybody wants to bend the requirements involving our kid's safety just as much as possible...in order that this non income specific "subsidy welfare" keeps rolling on into these non-profits (and out of scarce orv general funds) as has been happening for decades now.
"...Evidently, the rules vary by state, and (I think your sig says Michigan?) your state is different from mine in its program structure..."
It is in that the ASI was basically 'brushed aside' here in Michigan when a size rather than age appropriate program was ramrodded through by subsidy seekers. There were instructors (some formerly ASI) who tried to slay the proverbial fat subsidized hog here by convincing the state that ASI couldn't 'possibly' coexist side-by-side with their new-fangled training program. The state agreed 100% on the need for size-appropriate training...then brought in the amount of people actually needed (qualified or not) to start training these kids in greater numbers...leaving these former ASI trainers with little to no state or national backing whatsoever.(more kids trained with no hands-on experience required as a compromise; as you see happening in your state).
The irony here being that if these instructors had all at least backed ASI as an 'alternative'... instead of shooting the moon on tasty-looking subsidies (these guys are still trying to TRIPLE the subsidy fund at the expense of all other Michigan orv programs) they might have all still been teaching ASI and making a buck at it...instead of calling the state of Michigan every name in the book for filling an emergency need in regards to put a bandaid on a very screwed up previous program.
I spoke with someone from the the ASI during the period in which where they were being shoved aside here and they obviously weren't any more impressed with what was going on than I was at the time.
"....Here (CA) they get a certificate that says "observer" if they showed up on a non-appropriate sized ATV, and watched rather than ride. The state seems to be happy with that, rather than send them away untrained...."
The state of Michigan seems to feel pretty much the same way; yet with no requirement that they show up with any quad whatsoever....which led me to my previous question(s)
Is every kid who attends these classes required to have their own atv (loaned or owned) by their side during class...and if not...how does the state distinguish as to who actually 'observed' the class and who did not? (in other words, I observed kids in a recent boating safety class who didn't pay attention one lick the whole time...and then got 'tutoring' afterwards to make darn sure that they assed the course!).
And again, I wonder if the ASI gets payed the same for each kid taught out of this subsidized fund....whether these kids are 'observers' or not?
"...Not all programs have a full selection or quantity of loaner ATV's..."
Which throws this ball back in the "size specific" court.....and programs that basically demand that kids (parents) darn well get their machines with their kids on them to class come heck or high water; that they pay for these classes in full and 'by default'....that no kid rides anywhere without hands-on training to begin with.
If orv leadership had the guts to stand for zero tolerance enforcement and the threat of impoundment/heavy fines for violating the above; our problems would 'almost' go away overnight. Yet as it is; as we see with CA's program and many others....everybody wants to bend the requirements involving our kid's safety just as much as possible...in order that this non income specific "subsidy welfare" keeps rolling on into these non-profits (and out of scarce orv general funds) as has been happening for decades now.
Sep 6, 2007 | 09:47 PM
#7
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Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Joined: Dec 2002
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From: Northern Virginia, near DC
Read this and think
There are just too many variables to ever expect a national mandate on regulations, standards, training etc. That would be seen as medling with the State's individual freedoms. The only common denominator in all the years has been CPSC and ASI standards. They may not be the best, but they are what we have to work with, with notable exceptions like MI. Some states are progressive, and allow a kid to move up in class after demonstrating a certain level of competency, but no system is perfect. Tarining in any form has some value. I am surprised with my youngest to find out just how much he does learn when he gives you the impression he isn't paying any attention. There is not perfect answer. I don't see the federal government getting involved. They are more inclined to eliminate the whole deal than to fix it.
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Sep 7, 2007 | 12:30 AM
#8
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Read this and think
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt:
"There are just too many variables to ever expect a national mandate on regulations, standards, training etc. That would be seen as medling with the State's individual freedoms..I don't see the federal government getting involved. They are more inclined to eliminate the whole deal than to fix it.."
Has anybody called for a national mandate or federal involvement here?
I don't know about anybody else; yet I'd just like my national off-road leadership to take a more specific public stand on these issues beyond the 'wear your safety gear' diatribe that we've been subjected to for decades now. If these guys we send money into are afraid of informing parents of their monetary responsible here for fear that they'll quit sending money into them...well then possibly it's time to kick both them and these trainers off of the subsidized training fund trough so that some of these needed reforms can possibly move forward.
"...'The only common denominator in all the years has been CPSC and ASI standards. They may not be the best, but they are what we have to work with, with notable exceptions like MI...."
If these standards are all that we have to work with...then Michigan should have never been allowed to lift those standards from the ASI handbook and then kick the ASI in the teeth at the same time with their exclusion from the overall used machine program. They did all the work and even trained many of these trainers...yet I'm supposed to turn my head and stand aside for the guys who basically 'stole' this lifetime of work and now want to triple training subsidies for parents driving up to these classes in Escalades with no hardship proven.
"...but no system is perfect. Training in any form has some value...."
I am not willing to write off the current carnage that I've witnessed lately involving these kids to 'no system is perfect' or even 'any training has value' over one of the more basic responsibilities on the planet...and that's for gosh sakes teaching some kid how to ride a damn atv.(I'm all for well qualified trainers; I recognize fully the difficulty of the job and the need to subsidize their training...just don't try to convince me that the difficulty level 'program-wise' is on a par with turning out little Doug Gusts over the course of a few hours...).
We've settled for second and third best programs for far to long at the expense of these kid's lives and frankly I am tired of treating the final solution to a safer environment for them as if the debate is truly akin to figuring out just how to save the free world as we know it.
Training need only take one form and a system that would support this teaching does not even require perfection; much less half-a-brain to figure out.
You force parents to pay for the whole darn thing and fine/impound the heck out of each and every owner or piece of metal and plastic that dares not conform to your leadership inspired and driven mandate.
Enforcement funds take a big jump....compliance jumps even higher...and wonder of wonders you've somehow avoided having to actually shame good 'ol folks into doing what they darn well should have been doing all along had they gave a darn about their kids in the first place.
"...There is not perfect answer...."
I just gave it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Yet the problem is...we lack the type of simple character required in any of our off-road leadership to carry these gut-check-type solutions forward...and there's a good number of people on this forum who know it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
"There are just too many variables to ever expect a national mandate on regulations, standards, training etc. That would be seen as medling with the State's individual freedoms..I don't see the federal government getting involved. They are more inclined to eliminate the whole deal than to fix it.."
Has anybody called for a national mandate or federal involvement here?
I don't know about anybody else; yet I'd just like my national off-road leadership to take a more specific public stand on these issues beyond the 'wear your safety gear' diatribe that we've been subjected to for decades now. If these guys we send money into are afraid of informing parents of their monetary responsible here for fear that they'll quit sending money into them...well then possibly it's time to kick both them and these trainers off of the subsidized training fund trough so that some of these needed reforms can possibly move forward.
"...'The only common denominator in all the years has been CPSC and ASI standards. They may not be the best, but they are what we have to work with, with notable exceptions like MI...."
If these standards are all that we have to work with...then Michigan should have never been allowed to lift those standards from the ASI handbook and then kick the ASI in the teeth at the same time with their exclusion from the overall used machine program. They did all the work and even trained many of these trainers...yet I'm supposed to turn my head and stand aside for the guys who basically 'stole' this lifetime of work and now want to triple training subsidies for parents driving up to these classes in Escalades with no hardship proven.
"...but no system is perfect. Training in any form has some value...."
I am not willing to write off the current carnage that I've witnessed lately involving these kids to 'no system is perfect' or even 'any training has value' over one of the more basic responsibilities on the planet...and that's for gosh sakes teaching some kid how to ride a damn atv.(I'm all for well qualified trainers; I recognize fully the difficulty of the job and the need to subsidize their training...just don't try to convince me that the difficulty level 'program-wise' is on a par with turning out little Doug Gusts over the course of a few hours...).
We've settled for second and third best programs for far to long at the expense of these kid's lives and frankly I am tired of treating the final solution to a safer environment for them as if the debate is truly akin to figuring out just how to save the free world as we know it.
Training need only take one form and a system that would support this teaching does not even require perfection; much less half-a-brain to figure out.
You force parents to pay for the whole darn thing and fine/impound the heck out of each and every owner or piece of metal and plastic that dares not conform to your leadership inspired and driven mandate.
Enforcement funds take a big jump....compliance jumps even higher...and wonder of wonders you've somehow avoided having to actually shame good 'ol folks into doing what they darn well should have been doing all along had they gave a darn about their kids in the first place.
"...There is not perfect answer...."
I just gave it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Yet the problem is...we lack the type of simple character required in any of our off-road leadership to carry these gut-check-type solutions forward...and there's a good number of people on this forum who know it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
Sep 10, 2007 | 12:48 PM
#9
Thread Starter
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Trailblazer
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Read this and think
ATVSI has growing-pains for sure; its just getting started. The first step is to get all manufacturers involved, then onto the individual states. Lobbying is a practice I would not be good at (being of military background). The organization is small, and has much work to do. You-all as consumers and parents are the biggest tool that they can have. Voice your opinion as good as it is in here - given enough numbers - and the politicians will listen.
