synyhetic vs regular oil
Dec 17, 2005 | 12:21 AM
#2
Red Rider
Honda, accept nothing less!
Honda, accept nothing less!
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,733
Likes: 1
synyhetic vs regular oil
One of my favorite subjects! First, I am a biochemist by profession, and have done a lot of study on the chemistry of oils. First off, to start with you always want to pick a motorcycle specific oil that is API SG/JASO MA.
Synthetics have huge advantages over petroleum, and ester synthetics have advantages over other synthetics. The small amount of extra money synthetics cost, is well worth it. My personal choice is Maxima Extra, which is 100% Ester Synthetic (http://www.maximausa.com/products/4s...synthextra.asp)! If you can't find it at your local shop, order it from onoffroad.com
Some oil info:
http://www.thumperfaq.com/oil.htm
http://www.maximausa.com/technical/l...beNews2002.pdf
Synthetics have huge advantages over petroleum, and ester synthetics have advantages over other synthetics. The small amount of extra money synthetics cost, is well worth it. My personal choice is Maxima Extra, which is 100% Ester Synthetic (http://www.maximausa.com/products/4s...synthextra.asp)! If you can't find it at your local shop, order it from onoffroad.com
Some oil info:
http://www.thumperfaq.com/oil.htm
http://www.maximausa.com/technical/l...beNews2002.pdf
Dec 17, 2005 | 02:35 AM
#3
Extreme Pro Rider
GOT BOOST!
GOT BOOST!
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,204
Likes: 0
synyhetic vs regular oil
Is the synthetic oil worth the extra cost ? I've always used regular 10-40 in all my cars , lawnmower whatever. Will it really help that much?
If you extend oil changes, then maybe. If you are going to race and need 100% of your power and your on the edge of engine distruction due to extreem heat, then maybe. If you live in north Alaska and your in the sub 0 temps then sure. For the average rider on this site, no I don't think so.
I use Rotella T in everything I own except in the circle car I crew chief for, that gets 8 quarts of Mobil 1. Some of my engines are almost 50 years old, one with almost 10,000 hours on it, and it uses a quart to 100 hours. I would hate to think of all the money I would have throw down the toilet using syn in this engine.
I can get Rotella for a little over a buck a quart. Most true syns are about 6 bones a quart; some fancy ones go way over that. So we are looking at about 5 bucks a change as apposed to about 25 bucks a change.
Some people on here said they are changing their oil at 8 hours!!!!!!! This can get expensive real quickly!!!
Maybe I'm lucky, but I have never had an engine failure due to oil.......NEVER. I have used Rotella all my life and won't change due to my "luck" with it.
I'm not knocking syn oil. They are better in all aspects..........except one, cost. With most of the engines I build and race, syn oil is not economically viable...................yet.
IMHO oil is not the big thing some would make it out to be in an average quad. Air cleaners are a different story!!!!!
Dec 17, 2005 | 02:49 AM
#4
Red Rider
Honda, accept nothing less!
Honda, accept nothing less!
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,733
Likes: 1
synyhetic vs regular oil
What's wrong with this picture??? You spent $8,000 on your quad. What's the big frigging problem with spending $8 for a liter of the best oil you can buy?
Poor people don't own quads! Anybody who can afford a quad, a truck and trailer to haul it, a toy hauler trailer to go camping, fuel, tires, chains, sprockets, a helmet, boots, etc., etc., can easily afford a UPS truck load of the finest oil!
Poor people don't own quads! Anybody who can afford a quad, a truck and trailer to haul it, a toy hauler trailer to go camping, fuel, tires, chains, sprockets, a helmet, boots, etc., etc., can easily afford a UPS truck load of the finest oil!
Dec 17, 2005 | 03:50 AM
#5
Extreme Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,418
Likes: 0
synyhetic vs regular oil
Originally posted by: reconranger
Poor people don't own quads! Anybody who can afford a quad, a truck and trailer to haul it, a toy hauler trailer to go camping, fuel, tires, chains, sprockets, a helmet, boots, etc., etc., can easily afford a UPS truck load of the finest oil!
Poor people don't own quads! Anybody who can afford a quad, a truck and trailer to haul it, a toy hauler trailer to go camping, fuel, tires, chains, sprockets, a helmet, boots, etc., etc., can easily afford a UPS truck load of the finest oil!
I agree with you.....but I am poor; literally. and I still put full synthetic in all my rides, even our family car. I am a mechanic, and love to build race engines. For me Synthetic is the only choice.
Dec 17, 2005 | 02:05 PM
#6
Extreme Pro Rider
GOT BOOST!
GOT BOOST!
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,204
Likes: 0
synyhetic vs regular oil
It has nothing to do with being rich or poor. It has to do with economic value.
Lets do a little math.
I have 10,000 hours on one of my engines (not a quad) and I change my Rotella oil at 100 hours on the dot. I can currently get 15-40 Rotella at a little over a buck a quart. If I use 4 quarts / change we will round that off to 5 bucks a change. So; if I do a little math it says that over the years I have spent $500 for oil.
Now lets do the same math if I used syn oil in the same engine. Now I realize they did not make syn oil 45 years ago and even about 20 some years ago it was BIG bucks and not available to the general public.
Now I don't know what this Maxima Extra costs but most true syn oil cost around 6 to 8 bucks a quart so we will go with 7 to be fair. Yes I know, sometimes you can get it cheaper at Wally world but most people go with dealer oil because they are scarried about auto oils. (In "most" cases this is another myth)
4 quarts x $6=$24 a change. Now we do the same math. 100 changes x $24/ change; wow that's $2,400 bucks!!!!
I priced a rebuild for this engine not too long ago and it was around 1,800 bucks. So, even if the engine needs to be rebuilt I have saved enough to do it by using good old dino oil.
Now, I change my oil out on a 100 hour basis. Like I said above, "some" people change their oil in 10 or 20 hours; some said 6 hours!!!!!! And this guy said he was using syn oil!!!!!!
For the fun of it lets say I used the 10 hour figure for oil changes for my engine.
10/10,000= 1,000 changes!!!!!
1000 changes x $24/ change; WOW that's...................hu?...............could that be right?..............lets do that again..............yep...........it's right............ $24,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets say this one more time a little different; that's TWENTY FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!!
Now this is a piece of equipment that this engine is in so you will never see 10,000 hours on any quad motor.
I would guess that the average quad puts on less than 1,000 hours and the bushings the seat the plastic and every wear surface on it is done. The quad is junk long before the engine is junk in most cases. After all, how many 70's bikes do you see on the trail when you go riding? How many 80's quads do you see? See that Rappy on the trail with the big buck oil in it? In most cases it will be wrecked by a tree shot or a 10x's roll down a hill before the engine goes south.
Most people will have their quad less than 10 years before it is wrecked or sold. I guarentee my quad with dino oil will run just fine 10 years from now, if I keep it that long.
I'm not here to argue with people that want to change their oil more than most change their underwear. If they do that, so be it. It's your money.
I'm here to point out the math and economics of syn vrs dino oil. I'm sure some kids on here think they "MUST" use syn oil or their quad will blow up. I'm here to say BS and that I've used good old dino oil in many many many race motors that wind up more RPM than most quads on this forum, and NEVER had an oil related failure.
I'm also here to say if you want your quad to perform like new 10 years from now you had better keep more of an eye on your air cleaner and worry less about oil.
And now I have to go riding!!!!!! (Better check my air cleaner) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Lets do a little math.
I have 10,000 hours on one of my engines (not a quad) and I change my Rotella oil at 100 hours on the dot. I can currently get 15-40 Rotella at a little over a buck a quart. If I use 4 quarts / change we will round that off to 5 bucks a change. So; if I do a little math it says that over the years I have spent $500 for oil.
Now lets do the same math if I used syn oil in the same engine. Now I realize they did not make syn oil 45 years ago and even about 20 some years ago it was BIG bucks and not available to the general public.
Now I don't know what this Maxima Extra costs but most true syn oil cost around 6 to 8 bucks a quart so we will go with 7 to be fair. Yes I know, sometimes you can get it cheaper at Wally world but most people go with dealer oil because they are scarried about auto oils. (In "most" cases this is another myth)
4 quarts x $6=$24 a change. Now we do the same math. 100 changes x $24/ change; wow that's $2,400 bucks!!!!
I priced a rebuild for this engine not too long ago and it was around 1,800 bucks. So, even if the engine needs to be rebuilt I have saved enough to do it by using good old dino oil.
Now, I change my oil out on a 100 hour basis. Like I said above, "some" people change their oil in 10 or 20 hours; some said 6 hours!!!!!! And this guy said he was using syn oil!!!!!!
For the fun of it lets say I used the 10 hour figure for oil changes for my engine.
10/10,000= 1,000 changes!!!!!
1000 changes x $24/ change; WOW that's...................hu?...............could that be right?..............lets do that again..............yep...........it's right............ $24,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets say this one more time a little different; that's TWENTY FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!!
Now this is a piece of equipment that this engine is in so you will never see 10,000 hours on any quad motor.
I would guess that the average quad puts on less than 1,000 hours and the bushings the seat the plastic and every wear surface on it is done. The quad is junk long before the engine is junk in most cases. After all, how many 70's bikes do you see on the trail when you go riding? How many 80's quads do you see? See that Rappy on the trail with the big buck oil in it? In most cases it will be wrecked by a tree shot or a 10x's roll down a hill before the engine goes south.
Most people will have their quad less than 10 years before it is wrecked or sold. I guarentee my quad with dino oil will run just fine 10 years from now, if I keep it that long.
I'm not here to argue with people that want to change their oil more than most change their underwear. If they do that, so be it. It's your money.
I'm here to point out the math and economics of syn vrs dino oil. I'm sure some kids on here think they "MUST" use syn oil or their quad will blow up. I'm here to say BS and that I've used good old dino oil in many many many race motors that wind up more RPM than most quads on this forum, and NEVER had an oil related failure.
I'm also here to say if you want your quad to perform like new 10 years from now you had better keep more of an eye on your air cleaner and worry less about oil.
And now I have to go riding!!!!!! (Better check my air cleaner) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Dec 17, 2005 | 02:52 PM
#7
Extreme Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,418
Likes: 0
synyhetic vs regular oil
Originally posted by: Doctorturbo
It has nothing to do with being rich or poor. It has to do with economic value.
Lets do a little math.
I have 10,000 hours on one of my engines (not a quad) and I change my Rotella oil at 100 hours on the dot. I can currently get 15-40 Rotella at a little over a buck a quart. If I use 4 quarts / change we will round that off to 5 bucks a change. So; if I do a little math it says that over the years I have spent $500 for oil.
Now lets do the same math if I used syn oil in the same engine. Now I realize they did not make syn oil 45 years ago and even about 20 some years ago it was BIG bucks and not available to the general public.
Now I don't know what this Maxima Extra costs but most true syn oil cost around 6 to 8 bucks a quart so we will go with 7 to be fair. Yes I know, sometimes you can get it cheaper at Wally world but most people go with dealer oil because they are scarried about auto oils. (In "most" cases this is another myth)
4 quarts x $6=$24 a change. Now we do the same math. 100 changes x $24/ change; wow that's $2,400 bucks!!!!
I priced a rebuild for this engine not too long ago and it was around 1,800 bucks. So, even if the engine needs to be rebuilt I have saved enough to do it by using good old dino oil.
Now, I change my oil out on a 100 hour basis. Like I said above, "some" people change their oil in 10 or 20 hours; some said 6 hours!!!!!! And this guy said he was using syn oil!!!!!!
For the fun of it lets say I used the 10 hour figure for oil changes for my engine.
10/10,000= 1,000 changes!!!!!
1000 changes x $24/ change; WOW that's...................hu?...............could that be right?..............lets do that again..............yep...........it's right............ $24,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets say this one more time a little different; that's TWENTY FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!!
Now this is a piece of equipment that this engine is in so you will never see 10,000 hours on any quad motor.
I would guess that the average quad puts on less than 1,000 hours and the bushings the seat the plastic and every wear surface on it is done. The quad is junk long before the engine is junk in most cases. After all, how many 70's bikes do you see on the trail when you go riding? How many 80's quads do you see? See that Rappy on the trail with the big buck oil in it? In most cases it will be wrecked by a tree shot or a 10x's roll down a hill before the engine goes south.
Most people will have their quad less than 10 years before it is wrecked or sold. I guarentee my quad with dino oil will run just fine 10 years from now, if I keep it that long.
I'm not here to argue with people that want to change their oil more than most change their underwear. If they do that, so be it. It's your money.
I'm here to point out the math and economics of syn vrs dino oil. I'm sure some kids on here think they "MUST" use syn oil or their quad will blow up. I'm here to say BS and that I've used good old dino oil in many many many race motors that wind up more RPM than most quads on this forum, and NEVER had an oil related failure.
I'm also here to say if you want your quad to perform like new 10 years from now you had better keep more of an eye on your air cleaner and worry less about oil.
And now I have to go riding!!!!!! (Better check my air cleaner) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
It has nothing to do with being rich or poor. It has to do with economic value.
Lets do a little math.
I have 10,000 hours on one of my engines (not a quad) and I change my Rotella oil at 100 hours on the dot. I can currently get 15-40 Rotella at a little over a buck a quart. If I use 4 quarts / change we will round that off to 5 bucks a change. So; if I do a little math it says that over the years I have spent $500 for oil.
Now lets do the same math if I used syn oil in the same engine. Now I realize they did not make syn oil 45 years ago and even about 20 some years ago it was BIG bucks and not available to the general public.
Now I don't know what this Maxima Extra costs but most true syn oil cost around 6 to 8 bucks a quart so we will go with 7 to be fair. Yes I know, sometimes you can get it cheaper at Wally world but most people go with dealer oil because they are scarried about auto oils. (In "most" cases this is another myth)
4 quarts x $6=$24 a change. Now we do the same math. 100 changes x $24/ change; wow that's $2,400 bucks!!!!
I priced a rebuild for this engine not too long ago and it was around 1,800 bucks. So, even if the engine needs to be rebuilt I have saved enough to do it by using good old dino oil.
Now, I change my oil out on a 100 hour basis. Like I said above, "some" people change their oil in 10 or 20 hours; some said 6 hours!!!!!! And this guy said he was using syn oil!!!!!!
For the fun of it lets say I used the 10 hour figure for oil changes for my engine.
10/10,000= 1,000 changes!!!!!
1000 changes x $24/ change; WOW that's...................hu?...............could that be right?..............lets do that again..............yep...........it's right............ $24,000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lets say this one more time a little different; that's TWENTY FOUR THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!!
Now this is a piece of equipment that this engine is in so you will never see 10,000 hours on any quad motor.
I would guess that the average quad puts on less than 1,000 hours and the bushings the seat the plastic and every wear surface on it is done. The quad is junk long before the engine is junk in most cases. After all, how many 70's bikes do you see on the trail when you go riding? How many 80's quads do you see? See that Rappy on the trail with the big buck oil in it? In most cases it will be wrecked by a tree shot or a 10x's roll down a hill before the engine goes south.
Most people will have their quad less than 10 years before it is wrecked or sold. I guarentee my quad with dino oil will run just fine 10 years from now, if I keep it that long.
I'm not here to argue with people that want to change their oil more than most change their underwear. If they do that, so be it. It's your money.
I'm here to point out the math and economics of syn vrs dino oil. I'm sure some kids on here think they "MUST" use syn oil or their quad will blow up. I'm here to say BS and that I've used good old dino oil in many many many race motors that wind up more RPM than most quads on this forum, and NEVER had an oil related failure.
I'm also here to say if you want your quad to perform like new 10 years from now you had better keep more of an eye on your air cleaner and worry less about oil.
And now I have to go riding!!!!!! (Better check my air cleaner) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Good math........now you didnt add in the factor that full synthetic doesnt break down as quick as the natural oil. I have no probley running my full syn 3 times longer than the natural oil. So you can cut the cost in 1/3. Pluss in my personall opinion engine life is increased, so I am holding out even longer on the rebuild, so every day past YOUR rebuild...I am saving money. Plus the claims of the oil companies (i'm not to convinced YET) is that you can achieve better gas milage....there is a further money savings over time........
BUT YES dino oil is just fine! It is really down to a personall choice. My father and I are both die-hard gear heads, I use syn....he uses dino oil and neither one of us have had a true engine failure that can be 100% traced back to type of oil.
Trending Topics
Dec 17, 2005 | 10:02 PM
#8
Extreme Pro Rider
GOT BOOST!
GOT BOOST!
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,204
Likes: 0
synyhetic vs regular oil
ThrashAndCrashUntilItsTrash your exactly correct about syn not breaking down. And you make a very good point about extended oil changes. There is only one thing I dissagree with on extended oil changes with a quad.
Contamination.
The reason oil changes color in an internal combustion engine is contamination. The reason it looks black is carbon contamination. Filters in the past and even now days can't take that out. They just can't filter down to that small of a micron. Sure I know about incapsulation packages in oil but I don't worry about that. I just dump it and I have brand new oil again for a 5 dollar bill.
It seems like I'm in the minority here but it seem like a lot of people use their quads as boats. When this happens some/most of the time another form of contamination; water and silt get into the engine. Filters don't do a good job of removing water either. When this happens, that $24 dollars worth of oil is junk. When it happens with dino oil it's only 5 bucks to change out and your back on the trail again.
Again, I'm not dissagreeing with the fact that syn oils are better. I know they are. I will disagree with the fact that most people on this site "need" syn oil. 9 times out of 10 any good oil will work. Like I said above; and pardon the pun; most people will ThrashAndCrashUntilItsTrash their quad long before the engine goes. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] If the engine does go, 9 times out of 10 it has nothing to do with oil and a lot to do with general maintenance and proper care.
Like I said above, air cleaners are a different story. I've seen new engines cut to ribbons in a mater of hours because of a filter seal failure. IMHO this is the place where most people should concentrate on, not fancy expensive oils.
Contamination.
The reason oil changes color in an internal combustion engine is contamination. The reason it looks black is carbon contamination. Filters in the past and even now days can't take that out. They just can't filter down to that small of a micron. Sure I know about incapsulation packages in oil but I don't worry about that. I just dump it and I have brand new oil again for a 5 dollar bill.
It seems like I'm in the minority here but it seem like a lot of people use their quads as boats. When this happens some/most of the time another form of contamination; water and silt get into the engine. Filters don't do a good job of removing water either. When this happens, that $24 dollars worth of oil is junk. When it happens with dino oil it's only 5 bucks to change out and your back on the trail again.
Again, I'm not dissagreeing with the fact that syn oils are better. I know they are. I will disagree with the fact that most people on this site "need" syn oil. 9 times out of 10 any good oil will work. Like I said above; and pardon the pun; most people will ThrashAndCrashUntilItsTrash their quad long before the engine goes. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] If the engine does go, 9 times out of 10 it has nothing to do with oil and a lot to do with general maintenance and proper care.
Like I said above, air cleaners are a different story. I've seen new engines cut to ribbons in a mater of hours because of a filter seal failure. IMHO this is the place where most people should concentrate on, not fancy expensive oils.
Dec 17, 2005 | 10:49 PM
#9
Extreme Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,418
Likes: 0
synyhetic vs regular oil
Originally posted by: Doctorturbo
Again, I'm not dissagreeing with the fact that syn oils are better. I know they are. I will disagree with the fact that most people on this site "need" syn oil. 9 times out of 10 any good oil will work.
Again, I'm not dissagreeing with the fact that syn oils are better. I know they are. I will disagree with the fact that most people on this site "need" syn oil. 9 times out of 10 any good oil will work.
Dec 17, 2005 | 11:08 PM
#10
Extreme Pro Rider
GOT BOOST!
GOT BOOST!
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,204
Likes: 0
synyhetic vs regular oil
100% agree......someday I plan on making it to So Cal and we will have to grab a beer!