2 cycle oil Ratings Part II
Jan 16, 2001 | 12:18 PM
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Taken from Spectro Motor Oil Web Site
Snowmobile/ATV Oil-Don't get snowed!
This also pertains to ATV 2 stroke engines
Question #3: What rating should I look for on the label of an aftermarket oil? Are they really the same as
the O.E.M. oil?
Most of the manufacturers oils are produced by specialty lubricant manufacturers and these formulas are tested and approved by the manufacturer for use in their sleds. The oils are blended according to a formula
that has been developed for two-stroke engines and this oil is usually given a rating from the American Petroleum Institute (API) of "TC", the Boating Industry Association (BIA) rating of "TC-W", or the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) rating of "TC-W II." All of these formulas were originally developed for outboard engines; however, motorcyclists found that their air cooled engines ran the best on the oldest API TC oils. These API TC formulas contained a higher level of bright stock 150, a high density petroleum base stock with a consistency similar to honey, that gave the best protection against piston seizure and bearing failure. To prevent carbon buildup in the piston ring grooves, these TC oils used metal based detergents that were very effective in motorcycle engines but caused some problems in outboard engines operated at long periods of time at one throttle setting. A whisker-like bridge could form across the sparkplug gap to permanently foul a cylinder under these conditions while the motorcyclist operating his engine at a constantly changing throttle setting never encountered this problem. When the BIA developed the TC-W rating, they excluded the use of these metal-based detergents in favor of organic detergents to eliminate this problem in outboard engines. These TC-W oils (two-cycle, water cooled) also contained lighter base oils without the bright stock 150. For engines operating in the 4,000 rpm to 5,000 rpm range, the absence of the bright stock 150 had no affect on piston and bearing life. However, off-road motorcyclists testing these new TC-W oils were disappointed with the bearing life of their engines operating at 10,000 - 11,000 rpm and quickly returned to using the TC oils.
The BIA evolved into the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) which works closely with the outboard manufacturers. The need for a clean two-stroke outboard oil was recognized when piston ring groove carbonization was seen as a primary cause for engine failure and a new formula designated TC-W II was developed. While this oil was significantly better for outboard use and was phosphate free, it still was not the optimum two-stroke oil for engines operating above 8,000 rpm. Recently, efforts to develop an even cleaner outboard oil have produced the latest NMMA TC-W3 and this oil, although containing no bright stock 150, has produced remarkable levels of lubricity and cleanliness in piston ring groove areas.
In Europe and the Far East, two-stroke motorcycles and scooters still comprise a significant percentage of overall two-wheeled traffic. Manufacturers of these engines have determined that they need still higher quality levels for two-stroke lubricants.
In Japan, manufacturers have developed a series of strenuous engine tests that can identify poor quality oils if they don't measure up in performance. They tested over 250 samples of two-stroke oils worldwide and used the survey results to establish these engine tests. This became the JASO classification system. (Japanese automobile standards organization).
The tests include a detergency test, lubricity test, initial torque test, exhaust smoke test and exhaust blocking test. These tests have a much closer connection to actual snowmobile engine applications compared to TC-W3 tests which are all conducted on raw-water cooled outboard engines. And for the first time ever, an oil can fail the test if it smokes too much!
The detergency test evaluates the oil's ability to maintain the cleanliness of critical engine parts, including exhaust power valves. This is very important on power valve equipped Rotax, Yamaha and Polaris engines.
The lubricity test measures two things. First, the engine is run with a load for 50 minutes then the cooling system is disconnected for ten minutes and the resulting drop in horsepower is recorded. This cycle is repeated several times and each drop in power is compared and it must not vary more than a specified amount or be more than a specified amount. Then the engine is run with increasingly leaner oil ratios: 60:1, 100:1 then 150:1. If no seizure occurs and power is maintained within a specified percentage, the oil passes. The initial torque test measures the engine's startability when cold, an important consideration for 3-cylinder 800cc sleds.
The exhaust blocking and smoking tests are run by mixing the test oil at an over-rich 10:1 ratio and running it in a two-stroke portable generator. The exhaust is channeled into a chamber where a photo cell measures the light that can pass through the smoke. It sounds crude but it works! Finally, a real world test to measure exhaust smoke from two-stroke engines! The exhaust blocking test simply examines the pencil sized exhaust outlet for carbon blocking. At a 10:1 ratio, these tests are very hard to pass. The highest JASO rating is FC. Lower ratings are "FB" and "FA." An even higher "FD" rating could be seen in the future.
In Europe, European two-cycle engine manufacturers were simultaneously working on two-cycle oil tests to separate the cheap, poor quality oils from the top quality oils. They tested the JASO reference oils in European engines and their top reference oils in Japanese engines. They found that European two-stroke high performance engines needed an oil with a better detergency and higher temperature performance than the best JASO "FC" oils.
In April, 1997, they published their ISO global standards for two-stroke oils with two quality level categories: ISO-L-EGB and ISO-L-EGC. The ISO-L-EGB aligns closely with JASO "FB" and the ISO-L-EGC aligns closely with JASO "FC" for minimum test standards. Then, they developed the "GD" detergency test to run hotter and longer (3 hours vs. 1 hour) than the JASO detergency test. Oils passing the new ISO quality level, ISO-L-EGD would be superior to any previous two-stroke oils available! Of course, it didn't take long for oil manufacturers to develop and test oil formulations that pass this new quality test, and most of them involve using synthetic base oils. Running these tests is a very expensive and time consuming effort but in the end, a bottle of oil with one of these JASO FC/ISO- L-EGD certified ratings means that the oil meets the highest quality tests set by the engine manufacturer in Japan and Europe.
Polaris has recognized the "all-in-one" advantages of TC-W3 two-stroke oil and recommends the use of TC-W3 oils in their watercraft and snowmobiles. Interestingly, their new synthetic "gold" oil is not TC-W3 approved, it is the new JASO FC/ISO-L-EGD approved oil!
Ski-Doo, however, specifically prohibits the use of TC-W3 oils in their snowmobiles and Sea-Doo watercraft, they recommended ISO-L-EGD oils while Yamaha recommends JASO "FC."
All of this may seem confusing and will probably make the choice of snowmobile lubricants even more difficult. In short, TC-W3 oils have a 10% higher level of lubricity than TC-W II oils and are a better choice for snowmobiles than any previous outboard oils.
However, specially formulated snowmobile oils that pass JASO FC/ISO-L-EGD and do not follow NMMA restrictions will provide much better protection for higher rpm applications (snowmobiles generally rev higher than 8,000 rpm) and still provide a superior lubricity and detergency than TC-W3 oils at the same cost with less smoke. So, use snowmobile oil in your snowmobile and outboard oil in your outboard engine.
Question #4: What's all this about synthetics?
Synthetic base oils used in two-stroke formulas reduce carbon buildup, smoke output and help lower the pour point (that's the temperature at which a fluid changes from a solid state to a flowable liquid) of the finished formula. Less carbon buildup on the piston top and sparkplug translates to less chance for stuck power valves and detonation, and detonation is known to be the #1 killer of snowmobile engines!
The #2 killer of snowmobile engines is overly lean carburetion and the #1 cause of overly lean carburetion is usually clogged or iced pilot or main jets.
When snowmobiles are stored during the summer, it is very common for the fuel remaining in the float bowls to oxidize and form corrosion or varnish on the main and pilot jets. If these jets are not cleaned or replaced in the fall, the engine will run lean off idle and at full throttle leading to an eventual burn-down.
I've noticed that these jets rarely have these problems in motocross bikes where oil is premixed with the gas since the oil and the anti-corrosion additives in the oil prevent these problems.
Before storing my sled I always make a batch of gas/oil mix and run it in the sled to make sure that the carburetor internals are protected from corrosion. A mix ratio of 50:1 to 100:1 is all it takes.
If your sled smokes excessively while trail riding (you know who you are!) you might consider trying one of the synthetic snowmobile oils available instead of the petroleum OEM oils. These oils are going to cost more money but the benefits will be reduced carbon deposits and much less smoke. Your friends will be thanking you!
Snowmobile/ATV Oil-Don't get snowed!
This also pertains to ATV 2 stroke engines
Question #3: What rating should I look for on the label of an aftermarket oil? Are they really the same as
the O.E.M. oil?
Most of the manufacturers oils are produced by specialty lubricant manufacturers and these formulas are tested and approved by the manufacturer for use in their sleds. The oils are blended according to a formula
that has been developed for two-stroke engines and this oil is usually given a rating from the American Petroleum Institute (API) of "TC", the Boating Industry Association (BIA) rating of "TC-W", or the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) rating of "TC-W II." All of these formulas were originally developed for outboard engines; however, motorcyclists found that their air cooled engines ran the best on the oldest API TC oils. These API TC formulas contained a higher level of bright stock 150, a high density petroleum base stock with a consistency similar to honey, that gave the best protection against piston seizure and bearing failure. To prevent carbon buildup in the piston ring grooves, these TC oils used metal based detergents that were very effective in motorcycle engines but caused some problems in outboard engines operated at long periods of time at one throttle setting. A whisker-like bridge could form across the sparkplug gap to permanently foul a cylinder under these conditions while the motorcyclist operating his engine at a constantly changing throttle setting never encountered this problem. When the BIA developed the TC-W rating, they excluded the use of these metal-based detergents in favor of organic detergents to eliminate this problem in outboard engines. These TC-W oils (two-cycle, water cooled) also contained lighter base oils without the bright stock 150. For engines operating in the 4,000 rpm to 5,000 rpm range, the absence of the bright stock 150 had no affect on piston and bearing life. However, off-road motorcyclists testing these new TC-W oils were disappointed with the bearing life of their engines operating at 10,000 - 11,000 rpm and quickly returned to using the TC oils.
The BIA evolved into the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA) which works closely with the outboard manufacturers. The need for a clean two-stroke outboard oil was recognized when piston ring groove carbonization was seen as a primary cause for engine failure and a new formula designated TC-W II was developed. While this oil was significantly better for outboard use and was phosphate free, it still was not the optimum two-stroke oil for engines operating above 8,000 rpm. Recently, efforts to develop an even cleaner outboard oil have produced the latest NMMA TC-W3 and this oil, although containing no bright stock 150, has produced remarkable levels of lubricity and cleanliness in piston ring groove areas.
In Europe and the Far East, two-stroke motorcycles and scooters still comprise a significant percentage of overall two-wheeled traffic. Manufacturers of these engines have determined that they need still higher quality levels for two-stroke lubricants.
In Japan, manufacturers have developed a series of strenuous engine tests that can identify poor quality oils if they don't measure up in performance. They tested over 250 samples of two-stroke oils worldwide and used the survey results to establish these engine tests. This became the JASO classification system. (Japanese automobile standards organization).
The tests include a detergency test, lubricity test, initial torque test, exhaust smoke test and exhaust blocking test. These tests have a much closer connection to actual snowmobile engine applications compared to TC-W3 tests which are all conducted on raw-water cooled outboard engines. And for the first time ever, an oil can fail the test if it smokes too much!
The detergency test evaluates the oil's ability to maintain the cleanliness of critical engine parts, including exhaust power valves. This is very important on power valve equipped Rotax, Yamaha and Polaris engines.
The lubricity test measures two things. First, the engine is run with a load for 50 minutes then the cooling system is disconnected for ten minutes and the resulting drop in horsepower is recorded. This cycle is repeated several times and each drop in power is compared and it must not vary more than a specified amount or be more than a specified amount. Then the engine is run with increasingly leaner oil ratios: 60:1, 100:1 then 150:1. If no seizure occurs and power is maintained within a specified percentage, the oil passes. The initial torque test measures the engine's startability when cold, an important consideration for 3-cylinder 800cc sleds.
The exhaust blocking and smoking tests are run by mixing the test oil at an over-rich 10:1 ratio and running it in a two-stroke portable generator. The exhaust is channeled into a chamber where a photo cell measures the light that can pass through the smoke. It sounds crude but it works! Finally, a real world test to measure exhaust smoke from two-stroke engines! The exhaust blocking test simply examines the pencil sized exhaust outlet for carbon blocking. At a 10:1 ratio, these tests are very hard to pass. The highest JASO rating is FC. Lower ratings are "FB" and "FA." An even higher "FD" rating could be seen in the future.
In Europe, European two-cycle engine manufacturers were simultaneously working on two-cycle oil tests to separate the cheap, poor quality oils from the top quality oils. They tested the JASO reference oils in European engines and their top reference oils in Japanese engines. They found that European two-stroke high performance engines needed an oil with a better detergency and higher temperature performance than the best JASO "FC" oils.
In April, 1997, they published their ISO global standards for two-stroke oils with two quality level categories: ISO-L-EGB and ISO-L-EGC. The ISO-L-EGB aligns closely with JASO "FB" and the ISO-L-EGC aligns closely with JASO "FC" for minimum test standards. Then, they developed the "GD" detergency test to run hotter and longer (3 hours vs. 1 hour) than the JASO detergency test. Oils passing the new ISO quality level, ISO-L-EGD would be superior to any previous two-stroke oils available! Of course, it didn't take long for oil manufacturers to develop and test oil formulations that pass this new quality test, and most of them involve using synthetic base oils. Running these tests is a very expensive and time consuming effort but in the end, a bottle of oil with one of these JASO FC/ISO- L-EGD certified ratings means that the oil meets the highest quality tests set by the engine manufacturer in Japan and Europe.
Polaris has recognized the "all-in-one" advantages of TC-W3 two-stroke oil and recommends the use of TC-W3 oils in their watercraft and snowmobiles. Interestingly, their new synthetic "gold" oil is not TC-W3 approved, it is the new JASO FC/ISO-L-EGD approved oil!
Ski-Doo, however, specifically prohibits the use of TC-W3 oils in their snowmobiles and Sea-Doo watercraft, they recommended ISO-L-EGD oils while Yamaha recommends JASO "FC."
All of this may seem confusing and will probably make the choice of snowmobile lubricants even more difficult. In short, TC-W3 oils have a 10% higher level of lubricity than TC-W II oils and are a better choice for snowmobiles than any previous outboard oils.
However, specially formulated snowmobile oils that pass JASO FC/ISO-L-EGD and do not follow NMMA restrictions will provide much better protection for higher rpm applications (snowmobiles generally rev higher than 8,000 rpm) and still provide a superior lubricity and detergency than TC-W3 oils at the same cost with less smoke. So, use snowmobile oil in your snowmobile and outboard oil in your outboard engine.
Question #4: What's all this about synthetics?
Synthetic base oils used in two-stroke formulas reduce carbon buildup, smoke output and help lower the pour point (that's the temperature at which a fluid changes from a solid state to a flowable liquid) of the finished formula. Less carbon buildup on the piston top and sparkplug translates to less chance for stuck power valves and detonation, and detonation is known to be the #1 killer of snowmobile engines!
The #2 killer of snowmobile engines is overly lean carburetion and the #1 cause of overly lean carburetion is usually clogged or iced pilot or main jets.
When snowmobiles are stored during the summer, it is very common for the fuel remaining in the float bowls to oxidize and form corrosion or varnish on the main and pilot jets. If these jets are not cleaned or replaced in the fall, the engine will run lean off idle and at full throttle leading to an eventual burn-down.
I've noticed that these jets rarely have these problems in motocross bikes where oil is premixed with the gas since the oil and the anti-corrosion additives in the oil prevent these problems.
Before storing my sled I always make a batch of gas/oil mix and run it in the sled to make sure that the carburetor internals are protected from corrosion. A mix ratio of 50:1 to 100:1 is all it takes.
If your sled smokes excessively while trail riding (you know who you are!) you might consider trying one of the synthetic snowmobile oils available instead of the petroleum OEM oils. These oils are going to cost more money but the benefits will be reduced carbon deposits and much less smoke. Your friends will be thanking you!
Jan 16, 2001 | 08:02 PM
#3
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I went out and checked the gallon bottle of Polaris Gold sythetic two stroke lube, and coudn't find that it met any specifications, whether TC-W3 or ISO-L-EGD. Where did you find the info the Polaris Gold is ISO-L-EGD approved?
I've started using it in premix to suppliment the oil injector on the Scrambler at 40: 1.
I've started using it in premix to suppliment the oil injector on the Scrambler at 40: 1.
Jan 17, 2001 | 10:31 AM
#5
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The information about the Polaris Gold Synthetic oil is a direct quote from the Spectro Motor Oils website in their FAQ section. I would have to assume that it is correct but I cannot verify it.
It is interesting to note that Polaris, Ski-Doo and Arctic Cat do not put oil grades on the snowmobile oil bottles. But... Yamaha does on its Yamalube, and it is JASO FC
Duster, if it is ISO-L-EGD it would be a good choice.
The challenge is to find alternatives for the factory O.E.M. oils which are a better value (i.e. cheaper) with the same or better ratings.
It is interesting to note that Polaris, Ski-Doo and Arctic Cat do not put oil grades on the snowmobile oil bottles. But... Yamaha does on its Yamalube, and it is JASO FC
Duster, if it is ISO-L-EGD it would be a good choice.
The challenge is to find alternatives for the factory O.E.M. oils which are a better value (i.e. cheaper) with the same or better ratings.
Jan 20, 2001 | 11:42 PM
#6
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Joined: Jan 2001
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How about something like yamalube semi senthetic, for a air cooled 2 stroke? i ran castoral 30 weight 2 cycle in my Old kawasaki 500 2storke triple street bike. i did have to bore it ocassionally, but i run the heck out of it, 80mph in 2nd gear, 100 in third, got scared and turned it off at 127mph. Getting back to the oil though is synthetic really worth the price, thats what im interested in. i think if you hammer your machine yes its worth it, and in hiperf apps. but for just puttsieing around no. Talk to me man, give me the lowdown.
silverman1
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Jan 22, 2001 | 05:37 PM
#8
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My wife rides a 98 Sport 400 (stock) and my son rides a 99 Blaster (with FMF pipe). They both have oil injectors.
I have a hopped up 98 Banshee. I run a castor/synthetic oil called "Power Plus" at 40 to 1.
According to the bottle's instructions, Power Plus can be used in Pre-Mix and Injector systems.
My question is: Should I run the Power Plus oil in my wife's 98 Sport 400? I cannot stand the hassle of carrying three different types of oil purchased from three seperate locations.
Thanks!
I have a hopped up 98 Banshee. I run a castor/synthetic oil called "Power Plus" at 40 to 1.
According to the bottle's instructions, Power Plus can be used in Pre-Mix and Injector systems.
My question is: Should I run the Power Plus oil in my wife's 98 Sport 400? I cannot stand the hassle of carrying three different types of oil purchased from three seperate locations.
Thanks!
Jan 23, 2001 | 11:32 AM
#9
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One has to be careful with true Castor based oils, especially in cold weather. Because they do not have a low "pour point" and have a tendancy to drop out of the fuel mix in colder temperatures.
Castor based oils are also not as clean burning as pure synthetics and have a tendancy to gum piston rings which may lead to a premature piston seizure. This castor based oil is not to be confused with "Castrol" which does not have these tendancies.
Castor based oils do not like to be mixed with other oils either, and may form gum ***** in the oil resevoir.
To each his own, but there are better alternatives out there than the nostalgic "nitro" smell of a castor bean oil derivative for two stroke use.
Castor based oils are also not as clean burning as pure synthetics and have a tendancy to gum piston rings which may lead to a premature piston seizure. This castor based oil is not to be confused with "Castrol" which does not have these tendancies.
Castor based oils do not like to be mixed with other oils either, and may form gum ***** in the oil resevoir.
To each his own, but there are better alternatives out there than the nostalgic "nitro" smell of a castor bean oil derivative for two stroke use.
Jul 18, 2002 | 02:35 AM
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Ok, I read the whole story on oil. I will be the first to admit that I am not a rocket scientist. I have some 2 cycle oil made by Citgo, the rating on the bottle says ISO EGD and JASO FC. No where on the bottle does it say pre mix or injector oil. It says low smoke, synthetic blend, low ash, smooth flow in extreme cold. For high performance snowmobiles and watercraft with water or air cooled engines. Is it safe to use in my xplorer 300 as injector oil?