picking primary for scrammy
Dec 29, 2010 | 05:41 PM
#1
Thread Starter
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Trailblazer
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
picking primary for scrammy
ftwflh has been a huge help with this but ive ran into a wall. ive tried to call a few vendors for parts and cant seem to get a call back.
the suggested setup was a dalton blk/wht primary,aeen blue sec and 47.5 weights. ive got the secondary and weights handled but not the primary. what would be a good equal to the dalton from epi or hpd? i was thinking hpd plain or the epi brite green or pink. suggestions?
i ride mostly trails and the 500 has a slip on and k&n clamp on w/hpd jet kit.
the suggested setup was a dalton blk/wht primary,aeen blue sec and 47.5 weights. ive got the secondary and weights handled but not the primary. what would be a good equal to the dalton from epi or hpd? i was thinking hpd plain or the epi brite green or pink. suggestions?
i ride mostly trails and the 500 has a slip on and k&n clamp on w/hpd jet kit.
Dec 30, 2010 | 08:55 AM
#3
Pro Rider
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
From: Brainerd, MN
For the EPI springs it depends on what rate the Dalton Spring is. I think it is a 45-143. You might want to double check that with Dalton or ftwflh. If it is that rate the closest EPI spring would be the PATV1 Red Spring 35-140 or the PATV11 Dark Green 55-145.
Dec 31, 2010 | 11:14 AM
#6
Range Rover
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
Before changing your Primary Clutch Spring you need to determine if you need more or less shiftout rpm and more or less stall speed rpm.The shiftout rpm depends on if the mods that you have made (the slip-on and airfilter) have moved the power that you are making up or down in the RPM range.
An example of this would be that before the mods you might have been making 37 HP at 6600 RPM's, but your power didn't really start to fall off drastically until 7200 RPM's.With the new slip-on muffler you might be making 40 HP at 6600 RPM's, but your power doesn't start to fall off until 7400 RPM's now.If your factory primary spring was rated at a shiftout number of 140 then you might get better results running a primary spring with a shiftout higher than 140 like maybe a 145 or 150.
By changing the stall speed rating on the primary spring it is just going to let you take off at a different RPM.Stall speed is really just a matter of preference IMO.If you are doing aggressive riding and the traction is good then you might like a higher stall speed.If you are just riding around and don't like aggressive launches then you might like the stock or even a lower stall speed.
The Dalton primary spring that you are using is rated at 39-144.The two EPI springs that you are looking at are both rated lower in shiftout and stall, so you would actually be losing some performance with them unless your slip-on has moved your power down in the RPM range.The two that EPI Chad recommended for you might be a better choice and seem to make more sense to me without seeing a Dyno Chart for your Scrambler.
The HPD spring that you are looking at would more than likely slow you down with a rating of 32-235.Unless you are making some big HP numbers at a higher RPM than the stock rating then your primary clutch wouldn't be able to work properly with such a high tension spring.Your Scrambler would probably feel like it was maxxed out at top speed at around 400 to 500 feet in a dragrace.
Your best bet on deciding what primary spring to go with would be to see if the company that made your slip-on could be to give you some dyno numbers of where the muffler is making it's power at and where the power starts to fall off in the RPM range compared to the factory muffler.
An example of this would be that before the mods you might have been making 37 HP at 6600 RPM's, but your power didn't really start to fall off drastically until 7200 RPM's.With the new slip-on muffler you might be making 40 HP at 6600 RPM's, but your power doesn't start to fall off until 7400 RPM's now.If your factory primary spring was rated at a shiftout number of 140 then you might get better results running a primary spring with a shiftout higher than 140 like maybe a 145 or 150.
By changing the stall speed rating on the primary spring it is just going to let you take off at a different RPM.Stall speed is really just a matter of preference IMO.If you are doing aggressive riding and the traction is good then you might like a higher stall speed.If you are just riding around and don't like aggressive launches then you might like the stock or even a lower stall speed.
The Dalton primary spring that you are using is rated at 39-144.The two EPI springs that you are looking at are both rated lower in shiftout and stall, so you would actually be losing some performance with them unless your slip-on has moved your power down in the RPM range.The two that EPI Chad recommended for you might be a better choice and seem to make more sense to me without seeing a Dyno Chart for your Scrambler.
The HPD spring that you are looking at would more than likely slow you down with a rating of 32-235.Unless you are making some big HP numbers at a higher RPM than the stock rating then your primary clutch wouldn't be able to work properly with such a high tension spring.Your Scrambler would probably feel like it was maxxed out at top speed at around 400 to 500 feet in a dragrace.
Your best bet on deciding what primary spring to go with would be to see if the company that made your slip-on could be to give you some dyno numbers of where the muffler is making it's power at and where the power starts to fall off in the RPM range compared to the factory muffler.
Dec 31, 2010 | 04:52 PM
#7
Quad Patrol
Don't let the hp numbers fool you. Its all in how you get it to the ground. Clutching clutching clutching!
Don't let the hp numbers fool you. Its all in how you get it to the ground. Clutching clutching clutching!
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 6,688
Likes: 1
Before changing your Primary Clutch Spring you need to determine if you need more or less shiftout rpm and more or less stall speed rpm.The shiftout rpm depends on if the mods that you have made (the slip-on and airfilter) have moved the power that you are making up or down in the RPM range.
An example of this would be that before the mods you might have been making 37 HP at 6600 RPM's, but your power didn't really start to fall off drastically until 7200 RPM's.With the new slip-on muffler you might be making 40 HP at 6600 RPM's, but your power doesn't start to fall off until 7400 RPM's now.If your factory primary spring was rated at a shiftout number of 140 then you might get better results running a primary spring with a shiftout higher than 140 like maybe a 145 or 150.
By changing the stall speed rating on the primary spring it is just going to let you take off at a different RPM.Stall speed is really just a matter of preference IMO.If you are doing aggressive riding and the traction is good then you might like a higher stall speed.If you are just riding around and don't like aggressive launches then you might like the stock or even a lower stall speed.
The Dalton primary spring that you are using is rated at 39-144.The two EPI springs that you are looking at are both rated lower in shiftout and stall, so you would actually be losing some performance with them unless your slip-on has moved your power down in the RPM range.The two that EPI Chad recommended for you might be a better choice and seem to make more sense to me without seeing a Dyno Chart for your Scrambler.
The HPD spring that you are looking at would more than likely slow you down with a rating of 32-235.Unless you are making some big HP numbers at a higher RPM than the stock rating then your primary clutch wouldn't be able to work properly with such a high tension spring.Your Scrambler would probably feel like it was maxxed out at top speed at around 400 to 500 feet in a dragrace.
Your best bet on deciding what primary spring to go with would be to see if the company that made your slip-on could be to give you some dyno numbers of where the muffler is making it's power at and where the power starts to fall off in the RPM range compared to the factory muffler.
An example of this would be that before the mods you might have been making 37 HP at 6600 RPM's, but your power didn't really start to fall off drastically until 7200 RPM's.With the new slip-on muffler you might be making 40 HP at 6600 RPM's, but your power doesn't start to fall off until 7400 RPM's now.If your factory primary spring was rated at a shiftout number of 140 then you might get better results running a primary spring with a shiftout higher than 140 like maybe a 145 or 150.
By changing the stall speed rating on the primary spring it is just going to let you take off at a different RPM.Stall speed is really just a matter of preference IMO.If you are doing aggressive riding and the traction is good then you might like a higher stall speed.If you are just riding around and don't like aggressive launches then you might like the stock or even a lower stall speed.
The Dalton primary spring that you are using is rated at 39-144.The two EPI springs that you are looking at are both rated lower in shiftout and stall, so you would actually be losing some performance with them unless your slip-on has moved your power down in the RPM range.The two that EPI Chad recommended for you might be a better choice and seem to make more sense to me without seeing a Dyno Chart for your Scrambler.
The HPD spring that you are looking at would more than likely slow you down with a rating of 32-235.Unless you are making some big HP numbers at a higher RPM than the stock rating then your primary clutch wouldn't be able to work properly with such a high tension spring.Your Scrambler would probably feel like it was maxxed out at top speed at around 400 to 500 feet in a dragrace.
Your best bet on deciding what primary spring to go with would be to see if the company that made your slip-on could be to give you some dyno numbers of where the muffler is making it's power at and where the power starts to fall off in the RPM range compared to the factory muffler.
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Dec 31, 2010 | 06:25 PM
#8
Range Rover
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
500s dont need to be clutched to pipe.Main thing on setting up a 500 is keeping the top rpm down below 6700.Clutching for trails is not like clutching for drags.You need fast back shift aka the secondary spring,decent stall(nothing over 2000rpms and a weight just enough to get the stall down and keep the rpms safe.A 10 weight works best on 4strokes and lets it hold in the midrange decent(you can feel them shift from low to high aka kick over)
Dec 31, 2010 | 06:51 PM
#9
Quad Patrol
Don't let the hp numbers fool you. Its all in how you get it to the ground. Clutching clutching clutching!
Don't let the hp numbers fool you. Its all in how you get it to the ground. Clutching clutching clutching!
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 6,688
Likes: 1
What pipe and clutching you running on your 400 drag bike?
Dec 31, 2010 | 10:23 PM
#10
Range Rover
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
I really enjoy discussing ATV's, especially Polaris Gen 3's, so I hope this doesn't offend you, but my Sport 400 isn't a dragrace only quad.I've set it up to be able to race flattrack, ATV Rodeo's and dragracing (I race at an IHRA 1/8th mile track and 150' dirt drag track) with just a change of wheels and tires and a wheelie bar for the IHRA track.I've raced against Scrambler 500's both on the dragstrip and at the ATV Rodeo's and they really don't impress me.For the last couple of years at the ATV Rodeo's they have been letting the Scrambler 500's run in the Utility class because they have been getting beaten so bad in the Sport Quad classes.The Scrambler motor just doesn't seem to be that responsive to mod's compared to most Sport based ATV's.
The main reason that I reference dragracing at the IHRA track so much is because of the data that I'm able to get from that track.With my slicks and wheelie bar on the paved track that is prepped with VHT I'm able to run consistent times each pass and the timing system at the track gives me 60', 330', 660' times as well as 660' MPH and reaction times.I've been able to see how different stall speeds effect my reaction times as well.I would never try and compare data from different runs on a dirt track because track condition and traction seem to be questionable from pass to pass.Also with the IHRA track I know that the timers are set in the exact same place from week to week and are very accurate giving me consistent data.
From my experience what works well for me on the paved IHRA Dragstrip with my motor, carb and clutch setup also works well for me with my flattrack racing and ATV Rodeo's with one exception.Depending on what the traction is like on the dirt at the starting line I sometimes have to either run a primary with less stall or if I don't switch out primary springs just not stall it up all the way.
On the IHRA track I dragrace in a points series with a 100% money payout and the only changes that I make are I use JR Dragster slicks on the rear, smooth flattrack tires on the front and a wheelie bar.Here's a picture of my 62 year old father launching it off the line at a Test & Tune session with the yellow plastic on it.Notice how the slicks are wrinkling.
For the ATV Rodeo's, flattrack and dirt dragraces I run the exact same setup right down to the wheels and tires on the Sport.Out of the three of these events I really focus on the ATV Rodeo's more just because it pays out more money if you place in the top three and there is more competition.At these event's I have to race in a 2 stroke only class against Banshee's, Honda 250R's and Suzuki Quadracers.I've done some trailriding with my Sport but really don't do that much because I don't want to take a chance on wreaking it and injuring myself or breaking something on a trail ride and miss a points or money race.
As to what pipe and clutch I run there is really more to my combo than just those two items, but for your information I run an HPD race pipe with an Orange EPI primary Polaris Snowmobile spring with a rating of 120-260 and a Team Roller Secondary with a bright green/silver spring rated at 125-190.I wouldn't recommend running that clutching or pipe with a stock 400 motor for anyone reading this because my motor is far from stock.
Here's how my Sport is sitting right now, far from a drag quad, but this is how I dragraced it at the last dirtdrags back in October and it was fairly competitive
The main reason that I reference dragracing at the IHRA track so much is because of the data that I'm able to get from that track.With my slicks and wheelie bar on the paved track that is prepped with VHT I'm able to run consistent times each pass and the timing system at the track gives me 60', 330', 660' times as well as 660' MPH and reaction times.I've been able to see how different stall speeds effect my reaction times as well.I would never try and compare data from different runs on a dirt track because track condition and traction seem to be questionable from pass to pass.Also with the IHRA track I know that the timers are set in the exact same place from week to week and are very accurate giving me consistent data.
From my experience what works well for me on the paved IHRA Dragstrip with my motor, carb and clutch setup also works well for me with my flattrack racing and ATV Rodeo's with one exception.Depending on what the traction is like on the dirt at the starting line I sometimes have to either run a primary with less stall or if I don't switch out primary springs just not stall it up all the way.
On the IHRA track I dragrace in a points series with a 100% money payout and the only changes that I make are I use JR Dragster slicks on the rear, smooth flattrack tires on the front and a wheelie bar.Here's a picture of my 62 year old father launching it off the line at a Test & Tune session with the yellow plastic on it.Notice how the slicks are wrinkling.
For the ATV Rodeo's, flattrack and dirt dragraces I run the exact same setup right down to the wheels and tires on the Sport.Out of the three of these events I really focus on the ATV Rodeo's more just because it pays out more money if you place in the top three and there is more competition.At these event's I have to race in a 2 stroke only class against Banshee's, Honda 250R's and Suzuki Quadracers.I've done some trailriding with my Sport but really don't do that much because I don't want to take a chance on wreaking it and injuring myself or breaking something on a trail ride and miss a points or money race.
As to what pipe and clutch I run there is really more to my combo than just those two items, but for your information I run an HPD race pipe with an Orange EPI primary Polaris Snowmobile spring with a rating of 120-260 and a Team Roller Secondary with a bright green/silver spring rated at 125-190.I wouldn't recommend running that clutching or pipe with a stock 400 motor for anyone reading this because my motor is far from stock.
Here's how my Sport is sitting right now, far from a drag quad, but this is how I dragraced it at the last dirtdrags back in October and it was fairly competitive