ok, for awhile now i always assumed that banshees were the top quad around....350 cc's, 2 - stroke, they look cool, etc....but every video i see (huevos I and II, etc.) all the pro's are riding honda 250's (i think). it struck me as odd in the begining as to why the pro's would be riding 250's, when there is a 350 out there that from the numbers would appear to be faster....from reading some of the posts on here, i am finding out that i am wrong(?) people are saying that honda's have better handling, low end, etc......can someone out there please explain to me once and for all the real benefits and differences of a honda 250r, and also if i buy one, since it will be so old, will i most likely have to do a lot of repair and upgrades to it?...any info you can supply will be greatly appreciated.
thank you

 

Ok, it is true that the banshee has more cc's than a 250R. The horsepower of a banshee is 39 and the hp of a 250r is 32. Not a whole lot of difference. The 250R motors can easily be modified to keep up with a banshee, and beat them..but power isnt everything. The suspension is superior on the honda, expecially for racing. The banshee is not the most power quad either. Suzuki made a 500cc 2 stroke machine called the quadzilla. When both machines are stock, the quadzilla has a clear power advantage...but like the banshee, it just didnt have the right setup for a pure racing quad. Power is not everything.

 

Kaydub,
Sounds like your a candidate for the awesome DS-650. 650 cc(Rotax) of banshee beating power, the suspension of a total race quad, and a price less than it would cost you to build ANY 250r/Banshee with equal performance. Check out some of the posts in the Bombardier forum, or check out some of the performance magazines like DirtWheels and Atv Sport.

RoostKing...

 

Roostking, have you ever thought about putting $7,000 into a LT500? How do you think that would compete? I bought my LT500 for $900, and I would not be afrade at all of a DS650, imagine me investing $6,100 more dollars into my machine. I'm sure I could easily beat the DS at any game it wants to play.

I've become very proud of a dyno compairison that 4 wheel ATV action did this month. They had the following quads competing on the dynos.

350 banshee
Stock bore&stroke
LRD adjustable pipe and silencers
27mm Mikunis (stock)
Peak power 41.0 rear wheel HP
(pipes add 17hp! yeah right try 2 peak hp!!!)

350 banshee
Porting and polished by Ron Gardner
FMF fatty pipes
28mm flat slide carbs
peak power 43.8 rear wheel HP

418 banshee
Porting and motor work Sarn Coe.
Tommey t5 pipes
65.5mm bore, 62mm stroke
34mm Keihin PJ flat slide carbs
Peak power 50.4 rear wheel HP

450 banshee
Motor builder and porting Trinity Racing
70mm bore, 61mm stroke
Tommey T-5's
35mm Keihin PWK's
Peak power 54.8 rear wheel HP

LT500R
Porting by J.M. motorsports
86mm bore 86mm stroke (Stock)
JM motorsports pipe
44mm Lectron
Peak power 55.6 rear wheel HP

I am very proud of just how competitive the LT500 engine is compaired to these radical banshee motors. A quadzilla with porting, a pipe and an aftermarket carb is going to make more peak HP than any of the big bore banshee kits. Where are all you guys saying quadzillas cant compete with the king of quads banshee? Seems awfully competetive to me. With a 392lbs chasis with 57 rear wheel HP, the quadzilla seems to have a awesome power to weitht ratio with I'm sure the least amount of money intested into the quad. It seems that a mildly motified quadzilla motor is truely close to 70 horse power at the crank! I also love how they now call the DS650 the most powerful 4 STROKE quad ever offered to the public. Its about time we cleared that up!

 

I really dont understand all the hype about the DS650. Because, the instant I found out what a pig it was, and that its handling was subpar to a 250R or 400EX...I completely lost interest in it. I ride in fast trails(tight and wide open), but also want a track worthy quad that I can develop into a true race vehicle.

Honestly unless somebody like Laeger or Lonestar come out with a 250R based frame for the DS650 I just cant believe it will be a big hit on the race circuit. I think alot of local amateurs will buy them, but I also think they will not find them as suitable as a 250R for track duty.

Even Bombardier says it is a dune specific machine. So why does everybody want to put it on a race track and have it whipping up on 250R's...which isnt gonna happen anyway! When it comes to racing the 250Rs, 400EXs and even 250 QuadRacers have the other open class bikes, except maybe on TT, but even there most people are just running big bore 250R's.

I dont really have any problem letting people say the DS is a better duner than my 400EX, but I just refuse to believe it is a better Eastern trail or race bike.

OK, now back to the question at hand the reason the 250Rs are the number one race bikes is. That it is very reliable and it also was the best race bike from the factory, and it just makes sense to start out with the best. Then whatever mods you put on it make it that much better than the other machines. Also it was a very popular machine so alot of people have been riding them since they came out, and the factories havent made anything better. So it makes sense to stick to what you can ride your best on.

Adam Smith
99 400EX

 

Adam400EX is on the right on... Just as I previously said, I don't think a DS would stand a chance in a MX race or tight trials. Even the magazine tests still show the 250R and 400EX over the DS for trails and racing. Another thing is they say the DS will all of a sudden stray to a side if it hits a rut, and if that happens in MX, good luck keeping that heavy of a quad under control at high speed, especially if your next to another competitor or hitting the face of a jump. If you've ever raced a national and have felt the ruts that develop, you know what I mean... Also suspension fads allot during a long moto, so that's enough to tire you tremendously, let alone having an extra 100lbs to pound you even more.

But yes, the Banshee is faster in straight line speed than the 250R, but with more bottom end, and better handling, and a less tiring power band, less weight, and better suspension; a 250R is faster than a Banshee out of the corners and over rough terrain like that found in MX or trails. Thats why 250R's are preferred for racing. Also there all kinds of big bore kits that make the R as fast or faster than a Banshee.
But then it depends on where you will be riding, if you mainly are a duner, then a Banshee or even the DS may be quads to look at. Remember, a built 2-stroke is more reliable than a built 4-stroke, and a 2-stroke is easier, cheaper, and can be made faster than a much larger 4-stroke.

Like I always say, if its at all possible, try riding each quad you look at to see which one fits your style. You will be happier than listening to what others say they think is the best, for you they may be right or wrong, but the facts show that some are better suited to certain environments than others. In my oppinion either a 250R or 400EX are the most flexible quads, as far as all-around ridability in any terrain is concerned.

Good Luck,

Sickman

 

Dominator,
I agree the LT 500 is a great machine,but youd be pretty hard-pressed to find many for $900. Youve got a good argument there though...

Adam and SandMan,
Did you read the Dirt Wheels article with the DS-650 vs. the FULL race 250R(not a magazine racer, but a true competitor) and the project 600 quad? The dartiness dissapeared on the track. The writer attributed the dartiness in the sand to the flat front tire profile, which again, was non-existent on the track. Did the DS-650 beat the FULL RACE 250 R on the track? no. Did it get crushed? Certainly not. It was across the line only 3 seconds behind the FULL RACE 250 R. Only 1 second behind the Project 600ex( with Laeger frame and top o' the line suspension). The comment regarding the weight of the machine is also addressed in the article. With such a awesome race suspension stock, it was mentioned that the DS did not feel like it was 480+ pds. In fact, the writer said the FULL RACE 250 R was harder and more fatiguing to run around the track than the DS, and if it was a long race, the DS might have actually beat the FULL RACE 250 R, simply because the rider would be more tired on the FULL RACE 250 R. But this is not about a FULL RACE quad ( that costs upwards of $10,000.00)Vs. a STOCK (tires as well) DS-650($7000) on a track. Its about reading between the lines. If either a stock 400EX or stock Banshee was up to the task, they would have run them against the DS, but they didnt. Hmmmm. Think the 400Ex or a Banshee would compare so favorably to a FULL RACE 250 R as the DS did? Didnt think so.

What about trail riding? Yes the DS is fairly large, but how often do you try to split trees that are only 50" across anyhow? The DS has a tighter turning radius than a 400ex as well.

Now explain again how a $5500 400EX or $6100 Banshee is better than a $7000 Ds-650!!!

RoostKing...

 

The 400ex can't compare to the ds stock or even highly modified. It appears that the reign of the 400ex being best high performance 4 stroke has ended. Maybe next time Honda comes out with a new quad they will choose to use a engine that has more than 1970's tech air cooling and a dismal 27hp rating. Good chasis, bad motor, try again Honda, way to go Bombardier for breaking out of the underpowered sport quad trend.

 

Ok, so now this thread is getting interesting. Seems some DS650 enthusiasts have come in. Alright, most people want lighter quads, and the mags always are saying this quad should be lighter and so on. So now that one comes out that is heavy as a tank, but has over 40HP so it is ok. I refuse to believe that the DS is a worthy race machine, and I think my feelings will be proved, especially with overzealous supporters of the DS running about.

Alright from what I read in the DS, EX, R and Banshee shootout. A stock 250R won the mx race and the mag even admitted that they designed a track that was much more accomadating to the DS because they knew(in the back of their minds!) that it would be a wash if they didnt. So even after they made a DS specific track the DS still lost...what is wrong? Also dont say that the EX isnt competive against the DS stock vs. stock, and definitely dont say it isnt even competive highly modified. They already have proven that the 400EX is competive against the DS. Hey, I dont trust everything I read in the magazines, but you guys seem to so I will go on.

Ok, as for the race 250R only edging the DS by 3 seconds. UHHM, guys 3 seconds a lap is alot, that means in 5 laps the R has a 15 second lead, that constitutes a sever beating! You guys want your DS then fine, but dont rag on proven machines like the 400EX, and for sure not the legendary 250R. One last thing let us know how your racing seasons go on your new DS's. Remember, power isnt everything, and I can buy alot of mods with the $1400 difference between the DS and EX. I am already starting out with a much better handling machine.

Adam Smith
99 400EX

 

thank you to everyone who replied to my topic question...after listening to all of your comments and reading around about other topics on this forum, i am going with a 250r, which makes me happy.....i have always been a honda fan. i grew up riding atc's (honda 125m, 200s, and the 250sx) and was kind of bummed when i thought i was going to be buying a yamaha, but now........a honda 250r it is. now it's all about trying to locate, if anyone knows of one in the bay area (ca)...let me know.......thanks