how good are King Quads ?
Jul 4, 2001 | 02:38 AM
#11
Range Rover
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 105
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Bill,
It's true I don't put a lot of miles on my quad. Sometimes I may go 3 months without riding. Most of my rides don't last all day. A few hours usually and I'm good.
When I first got the King I used to hit the mud more often than I do these days. I do try to find some water (puddles) to ride through after what mudding I do to keep things from getting caked. I've always preferred and seek out the technical type trails.
My KQ's long brake life is partly due to riding style. I utilize engine compression much of the time.
When I examined the sealed rear drum I noticed a tight machine stepped fit plus a rubber o-ring where the drum cover mounts to the backing plate. Then where the wheel flange slides into the drum cover there's a seal around that (just like an auto axle seal) PLUS a greased rubber wiper type seal that rides against the back side of the flange. I don't see how Suzuki could have sealed that rear brake up any better. Unless those two seals are missing or severely chewed up, how's mud going to enter?
The front brakes aren't sealed as precisely as the rear, but still there's a hefty dust seal on the drum's edge that runs very close to the backing plate. The backing plate itself does have some rubber plugs, a few per side. If the plugs are missing there's a place for mud to enter. I wouldn't say mud could not get past the drum's dust seal as it's not a machined type relation between it and the backing plate, but it would take more mud than I've encountered in 9 years and 1800 miles to ooze in and cause ME any grief.
One thing: My rear brake is different than what's shown in my factory service manual. The one in the manual doesn't appear to be a sealed unit like mine but is more like the fronts instead. Perhaps there was an upgrade at some point. Again, mine's a 93.
Maybe it's time to replace the drum seals on some of those Michigan KQs ?
John
It's true I don't put a lot of miles on my quad. Sometimes I may go 3 months without riding. Most of my rides don't last all day. A few hours usually and I'm good.
When I first got the King I used to hit the mud more often than I do these days. I do try to find some water (puddles) to ride through after what mudding I do to keep things from getting caked. I've always preferred and seek out the technical type trails.
My KQ's long brake life is partly due to riding style. I utilize engine compression much of the time.
When I examined the sealed rear drum I noticed a tight machine stepped fit plus a rubber o-ring where the drum cover mounts to the backing plate. Then where the wheel flange slides into the drum cover there's a seal around that (just like an auto axle seal) PLUS a greased rubber wiper type seal that rides against the back side of the flange. I don't see how Suzuki could have sealed that rear brake up any better. Unless those two seals are missing or severely chewed up, how's mud going to enter?
The front brakes aren't sealed as precisely as the rear, but still there's a hefty dust seal on the drum's edge that runs very close to the backing plate. The backing plate itself does have some rubber plugs, a few per side. If the plugs are missing there's a place for mud to enter. I wouldn't say mud could not get past the drum's dust seal as it's not a machined type relation between it and the backing plate, but it would take more mud than I've encountered in 9 years and 1800 miles to ooze in and cause ME any grief.
One thing: My rear brake is different than what's shown in my factory service manual. The one in the manual doesn't appear to be a sealed unit like mine but is more like the fronts instead. Perhaps there was an upgrade at some point. Again, mine's a 93.
Maybe it's time to replace the drum seals on some of those Michigan KQs ?
John
Jul 4, 2001 | 08:59 AM
#12
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
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John,
replacing the seals do seem to help a little,however,even that did not last very long.I am very familier with the rubber seals you discuss,both front and rear.We clean and grease the seals after every mudding event and water/debree still find there way in.Its so bad on two friends Kings that these guys eliminate these types of terrains as much as possible.
Even worse is the mechanicle rear brake.It runs out of adjustment very quickly in these types of terrains.At any rate,I still find the King to be an interesting 4x4 ATV,
Bill
replacing the seals do seem to help a little,however,even that did not last very long.I am very familier with the rubber seals you discuss,both front and rear.We clean and grease the seals after every mudding event and water/debree still find there way in.Its so bad on two friends Kings that these guys eliminate these types of terrains as much as possible.
Even worse is the mechanicle rear brake.It runs out of adjustment very quickly in these types of terrains.At any rate,I still find the King to be an interesting 4x4 ATV,
Bill
Jul 5, 2001 | 11:19 PM
#13
Range Rover
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 175
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Bill,
I wish I had 3000 miles on my King. I just walked out (in the rain no less) and uncovered it to look at the odometer. 1147.4 miles is all I have. But you have to remember I am in CT right now and trails are almost non existent. I am looking forward to getting back to MI.
And yes I do not do a lot of mudding. So that may be why I don't have a problem. However even if I did I don't think I would go thru pads as quick as your poloris. Two days in WV and the brand new rears were almost gone. I have 1147.4 miles on mine including 214 miles in WV. (Looking forward to doing it again with the group)
I wish I had 3000 miles on my King. I just walked out (in the rain no less) and uncovered it to look at the odometer. 1147.4 miles is all I have. But you have to remember I am in CT right now and trails are almost non existent. I am looking forward to getting back to MI.
And yes I do not do a lot of mudding. So that may be why I don't have a problem. However even if I did I don't think I would go thru pads as quick as your poloris. Two days in WV and the brand new rears were almost gone. I have 1147.4 miles on mine including 214 miles in WV. (Looking forward to doing it again with the group)
Jul 5, 2001 | 11:41 PM
#14
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
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Eric,
yah we found the problem and there was a reason for the excessive brake wear.The rear disk was shot and pitted up on the Polaris.I've since changed the rear and front disks and hopefully that corrects my braking problems.Looks good so far.
I thought I recalled you and I having the Suzuki drum style brake questions in the Forums before we met?Where did I come up with SSOOOoo many miles at?
One thing I can ALLMOST gaureentee,if you go riding with us here in MI for a day in the Mud,you WILL at least need to remove the drums on the KQ for a THOURGH cleaning.I'll take disk brakes anyday!
Bill
yah we found the problem and there was a reason for the excessive brake wear.The rear disk was shot and pitted up on the Polaris.I've since changed the rear and front disks and hopefully that corrects my braking problems.Looks good so far.
I thought I recalled you and I having the Suzuki drum style brake questions in the Forums before we met?Where did I come up with SSOOOoo many miles at?
One thing I can ALLMOST gaureentee,if you go riding with us here in MI for a day in the Mud,you WILL at least need to remove the drums on the KQ for a THOURGH cleaning.I'll take disk brakes anyday!
Bill
Jul 6, 2001 | 02:26 PM
#15
Range Rover
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 175
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Bill,
Yes, I would prefer disk brakes also, but until I (or someone else with more mechanical ability) can come up with a way to put disks on the king I will have to live with it.
As for the mud, I will have to borrow, beg or steal Ecorman's tires and wheels first. Stock tires do not do well in mud.
And not exactly sure how we started chatting on here but it was not brake problems.
I will be looking forward to riding with you.
Yes, I would prefer disk brakes also, but until I (or someone else with more mechanical ability) can come up with a way to put disks on the king I will have to live with it.
As for the mud, I will have to borrow, beg or steal Ecorman's tires and wheels first. Stock tires do not do well in mud.
And not exactly sure how we started chatting on here but it was not brake problems.
I will be looking forward to riding with you.
Jul 6, 2001 | 04:18 PM
#16
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
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Eric,
as for borrowing Chucks tires/rims just to go mudding?That wont be necessary to prove to you how badly the KQs drum seals are,that can be achomplised with the stock rims/tires to prove that point.
Chuck
has been very busy with MATVA.I elected him as trailboss for our trail maintenance crew and he has done an excellant job and provided great leadership skills as well.
Myself,
I FINALLY have my OWN ATV Safety Training site within 5-6 miles of my home.I have been busy for 3 days burning the track in and cleaning/cutting up the site.This is going to be one great training track.I have a Pavillion to teach class,and about 100ft further is the riding track.In back of the track is a trail riding course with hills/descends ect.I cant wait to start training there.
A group of us [including Chuck] are headed to the U.P of Michigan for our second annual Poker run this coming Thursday.You need to get over this way and join us?The event takes two days to complete and we had a blast last yr.Great chating to yah,
Bill
as for borrowing Chucks tires/rims just to go mudding?That wont be necessary to prove to you how badly the KQs drum seals are,that can be achomplised with the stock rims/tires to prove that point.
Chuck
has been very busy with MATVA.I elected him as trailboss for our trail maintenance crew and he has done an excellant job and provided great leadership skills as well.
Myself,
I FINALLY have my OWN ATV Safety Training site within 5-6 miles of my home.I have been busy for 3 days burning the track in and cleaning/cutting up the site.This is going to be one great training track.I have a Pavillion to teach class,and about 100ft further is the riding track.In back of the track is a trail riding course with hills/descends ect.I cant wait to start training there.
A group of us [including Chuck] are headed to the U.P of Michigan for our second annual Poker run this coming Thursday.You need to get over this way and join us?The event takes two days to complete and we had a blast last yr.Great chating to yah,
Bill
Jul 8, 2001 | 01:43 AM
#17
Pro Rider
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 704
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Very nicely done, Bill... You didn't get emotional in this thread and you were clear on the subject. You get an "A" this time...
However, my '99 M.Y. King Quad, is on it's second set of shoes in the front and third set in the rear. All new shoes were installed at about 1,000 miles. I also installed new dust rings for right front and rear drum. It has over 1200 miles on it now and I've been through deep mud several times since. So far, I've not had a problem with water getting into the drums.
As for power, the King has plenty. The trans, four wheel diff. locking system really works hard. Pulling a tool cart behind loaded with tools, etc., I was able to go through a mud hole where the water was about 12 to 14 inches high, 15 yards long. The cart practically floated across at the speed the quad was moving.
I agree with both Bill and Eric, disk brakes would be much easier to care for. They missed one point. Drum brakes stop better than disk. So, I would like to have disk front and drum rear. I use the rear brake most times and would prefer it to be the most effective.
If your brother should consider a new King quad, make sure he looks at getting optional tires as opposed to the stock Dunlops. As Eric, stated, they aren't very reliable. I have Titan's all the way round, even though Bill, don't think much of my front, 489's, they do work well. I didn't change tire height but I did go with wider tires.
Wish you could make the Poker Run, Eric.
Chuck
However, my '99 M.Y. King Quad, is on it's second set of shoes in the front and third set in the rear. All new shoes were installed at about 1,000 miles. I also installed new dust rings for right front and rear drum. It has over 1200 miles on it now and I've been through deep mud several times since. So far, I've not had a problem with water getting into the drums.
As for power, the King has plenty. The trans, four wheel diff. locking system really works hard. Pulling a tool cart behind loaded with tools, etc., I was able to go through a mud hole where the water was about 12 to 14 inches high, 15 yards long. The cart practically floated across at the speed the quad was moving.
I agree with both Bill and Eric, disk brakes would be much easier to care for. They missed one point. Drum brakes stop better than disk. So, I would like to have disk front and drum rear. I use the rear brake most times and would prefer it to be the most effective.
If your brother should consider a new King quad, make sure he looks at getting optional tires as opposed to the stock Dunlops. As Eric, stated, they aren't very reliable. I have Titan's all the way round, even though Bill, don't think much of my front, 489's, they do work well. I didn't change tire height but I did go with wider tires.
Wish you could make the Poker Run, Eric.
Chuck
Jul 10, 2001 | 01:47 PM
#18
Range Rover
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 175
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Chuck,
I have always been under the impression that disk brakes stop better then drum brakes. That is why you see disk brakes all around on the muscle cars. Also I know chevy put them on one of their pickups. I know you work for chrysler but.. What do they put on the prowler and their pickups.
And yes I would love to come out for the poker run but something about having time off from work. Someday.
I have always been under the impression that disk brakes stop better then drum brakes. That is why you see disk brakes all around on the muscle cars. Also I know chevy put them on one of their pickups. I know you work for chrysler but.. What do they put on the prowler and their pickups.
And yes I would love to come out for the poker run but something about having time off from work. Someday.
Jul 10, 2001 | 04:40 PM
#19
Pro Rider
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 704
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I'm not a brake engineer Eric but I bet you're right. All the auto manufacturers tell you, disk are better than shoes for braking power. They certainly are simpler, there's no adjusting them. But when you start looking at area, shoes cover more area of the drum than disk pads, generally speaking. Since shoes push out to the surface of the drum as opposed to squeezing a metal disk on it's surface edge, it should be clear which is going to stop the fastest. Though drum brakes may stop your vehicle faster, that may not be the best approach. When stopping, you need control and I think that's what the manufacturers are really after. That and the fact that self adjusters basiclly suck. If you've ever had your front drums on your King Quad, full of muck after a day of playing, you know what I mean. Hope I'm not too boring. Just my thoughts...
Chuck
PS. Yeah, we'll get to ride another day...
Chuck
PS. Yeah, we'll get to ride another day...
Jul 10, 2001 | 08:58 PM
#20
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
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Here's MY take on the brake subject,
The braking shoe surface on a drum style shoe is generally larger than that of a disk pad,but that does no good if the entire brake SHOE surface does not meet the inside drum surface upon appling the brakes.How many times have you guys taken apart a drum style brake set-ups and seen the brake SHOES worn unevenly?I can say ALLWAYS.And this problem gets worse as the shoes wear. Chuck said,the self adjusters are a JOKE and I totally agree with him!And lets talk about brake pressure to.The braking pressures of drum style brakes vs disk brake pressure is differant to,with the disk using more pressure.More pressure equates to more stopping power.
So in reality,even if the braking surface is larger on a shoe,that does NO good if the entire shoe does not reach the surface of the drum,which is the case with drum style brakes.
Chuck made mention of using the rear brake most of the time and prefer for it to be most effective.Thats all good,however that cant be said of a KQs rear brake.The single rear brake set up on the King is a mechanical cable unit and even if funtioning properly,it cant stop ANYWHERE'S near as well as the front hydro brakes.Why did Suzuki do that?
Bill