Thats exactly the one! Thanks.

 

A no or weak spark with the starter engaged is usually caused by a bad trigger coil in the stator. Let me explain, your stator is weak but producedes a strong enough signal to trigger the ignition when push starting or pulling the rope, however when the starter is engaged, the magnetic field created around the starter is interfering with the defective coil, causing an eratic or non exsistant signal to the cdi box.

 

Hmmm, The motors magnetic field is shunted buy the motor's steel case housing and is at least 3 to 4 inches away from the stator.
The stator unit consists of the CDI pulser and it also has charging coil very close to it which is not shelded and is surrounded by a rotating magnet housed in the mold of the rotor.
Why doesn't this electromagnetic field affect the CDI pulser under regular conditions?

 

Guys,
I have to say--you guys are awesome!
Im not a mechanic but Im confident I can "troublshoot" with your guidance. If it comes down to having a dealer test something, would they test just the component? I can't get the bike down there--
Its 14 degress here today--im not going to play with it today.
Any way I can troubleshoot other components in the meantime?
Thanks
Cliff NY

 

Clif if you are talking about the CDI Unit I am sure they will! Call them and find out
I looked at the schematic and read the tread Raptor helped you with.
His finding looks to be on the money! Some of the info below will be a duplicate of what Raptor 450 had said.
==========
The way I remember him saying, before you both disapeared was, there is no voltage on the red/white wire when you pull start and the machine starts!
12v on it when you crank it over with the Electric start and it does not start...Something happening inside CDI Unit preventing the startup with the Electric start.
===============
Clif I suspect:
Looks like the CDI Black box has two seperate circuits inside of it one for the kill switches the other for the ignition pulse.
===========
When the ignition switch is on and the Engine stop switch is in the run position the Black wire and the Black/white wire is an open circuit ..meaning it is not completing a circuit when these switches are in these positions! These wires, which are also connected to the3 prong connector at the CDI Black Box can be elimiated, not literaly, but think about this.
--------------
The Sky Blue wire to the neutral safety switch is a ground when in neutral permitting a potential completed circuit to the relay coil inside the cutoff relay. looking at the diagram the left side of this relay has the energizing coil.
--------------
The Red/White wire at the CDI unit has a connection to the Cut-off relay and Starter Relay, ready to be energized by the starter button and only then.
When you pressed the starter button Starter motor spins, you got the voltage to the starter and the CDI unit as the schematic shows, it should be there at the Red/white wire at that moment! This is a good thing.
----------------
Bare with me on this.
Did you try testing the voltage at the Orange wire to the coil, using the electric start?
--------------
Using your volt meter hope it is not a digital meter, so you can see a fluctuation of the needle if there is any.
See if the needle bounces or swings from zero and back. Testing the Orange wire with respect to frame ground!

This is the same as across the low voltage terminals on the coil!

If you see NO movement, progress to a lower voltage scale, of the meter repeat test next lower scale, until you are sure there is nothing happening there, or a solid hi (12 v) or a solid low (zero volts), with no pulse at all.

Putting the scale back to view 12 volts

Compare this to the condition when you pull start. The needle should vibrate close to 12 volts and get more solid of faster shorter vibrations when you rev the engine.
---------------
What I believe, inside this CDI Black box unit has circuitry, (Diodes and transistors) also an. (SCR silicon controlled rectifier, which is just an elaborate name to an electronic DC switch), which isolates not insulates, the kill switch area from the pulse circuit side to the mag, so there is no direct shorting when either kill or main switch are used for shutoff.

This part is not damaged enough to cause the machine never to start.
See transistors and diodes or any electrical component on a discrete level (meaning the individual component which makes up the rest of the circuit) can change characteristics.
Characteristic can change, providing a definite open, short or a low or hi resistance.
The later two low or hi res. can exist and the circuit can work but in a different way then it was designed to.

---------------Pull the plug check for a spark one more time.......

The 3 wire plug on the CDI unit Red/White---Black---Black/White wires are not used when pull starting.
I do not see any reason that this three prong, one connector can be disconnected from the CDI unit while using the electric starter.
Ignition switch on position to feed the starter circuit, hit the starter button see if you have spark!
If you do!
Put the spark plug back in for the final test!
At this point remember (the Kill switches will not operate to shut off the machine)

Try to start the engine using the electric starter.

If it starts that side of the CDI unit Black Box Circuit has a malfunctioning component inside.

 

Tommy,
I actually do understand everything you mentioned! (I have troubleshot and actually taken apart the wifes car lights,window and electronic lock switches to repair.) Im somewhat logical. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
I didnt get a chance yesterday to look at the bike--It's in a shed and its 14 degrees! I hope to look at it this weekend--during the week i get home too late and there is no light in the shed.
My kill switch has been broken for years so there is no issue there. The acual spring/center button popped out just leaving the 2 contacts open.
I will use my analog volt meter to test as you requested.
Thanks again for all the time you guys are putting into this!!
Cliff NY

 

Yea I got a little long winded, try to explain what I see and if you have the schem and traced it to compare what I see, well 4 set of eyes are better than 2.
Good to know I can still explain things in writing [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

14 deg, no lights, OUCH you are a real die hard trooper!

Like to know what the outcome is and Good Luck !

 

Actually it does, however with a good coil the signal strength is enough to trigger the CDI. The problem happens when thwe coil is weak or defective. Check the coil with a DVOM for resitance and signal produced while cranking whith the starter motor.

 

If it is what you have said??? What you have described is something I read about Tank circuits in radio communications.
Maybe to check a magnetic field interference, is to use a gauss detector to see there is a magnetic field around the motor that expands that far away from the motor to have any affect, relating to this phenomena.
I am not sure that this is the case here!
Cliff did mention the engine runs when he pull starts it and runs good and strong.
If there was a weakness in the ignition system, as you have mentioned, wouldn't the ignition system break down at hi R's? Sputter and breakup, not run smooth...

BTW, Where did you get this info relative to starter motors, I would like to read up on it!

If you have experienced this with DC motors you may have something there that may solve part of the energy crises.

 

guys--
Where is the coil located? and what should it ohm out out if good? bad?
I hope to get to it tomorrow--snow is on the way again!!
Thanks Cliff