I've seen this topic raised in a couple different threads now, and it seems prudent to give it it's own topic.

Current limitations in MN are...

6-11 years must be on an ATV less than 70cc's (and noone seems to make anything over 50cc in this range anyway).
12-15 years must be on an ATV less than 90cc's

I will note that Minnesota does not seem to place ANY restrictions on what size of dirt bike or snowmobile my kids can ride, but then, we all know how much safer THOSE are [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

What I would like to know is, who's twisted brain child is this? While I agree that some limitation seems prudent, these restrictions seem rediculous. I've attempted to comply by placing my 11 year old, 5'4", 110lb son on a 90cc (Sorry he's just WAY too darn big for a 50), only to come to the realization that he's too big for the 90. In all honesty, I knew he was before I bought it, but I was trying to be nice and "law abiding." It is unfortunate and somewhat ironic that I will soon be buying him a larger, 200cc+ machine FOR HIS SAFETY. When this happens, I'll be putting my 8 year old (he'll be 9 by then) on the SP90 because, frankly, he'll be too big to safely put on a 50.

The other rediculous thing is lighting. The SP90 does NOT have lights because, according to Polaris, they don't want to encourage kids to ride at night. Have they never heard of daytime running lights? I run the lights on my Cat when trail riding in the day TO BE SEEN, not to see. Yet this tiny green and black machine is supposed to be easily visable because they put this little orange flag on it. That works great in the fall in MN. Can you say Camoflage?[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]

Sorry, that was a personal vent, and thankfully, other producers of children's ATV's are a little "brighter" about the lighting issue.

I guess the purpose of this discussion is to...

1) See who else is in agreement (which, I am guessing, is everyone)...
2) Get an idea of what people think REASONABLE limits should be...
and
3) See if anyone knows who we can FORMALLY complain to about this.


Whew, I feel a little better just getting that out. Thanks for listening.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

 

We all know the problem here stems back to the motorcycle industry and their death machines (3 wheelers). It was after that problem that the AMA and the Safety Institute set the age/cc standards. Some states followed the AMA rules and some did not.

Until recently, I believe that there was a decree where all sellers and manufacturers of youth ATV's agreed not to sell one to the wrong age. Since the norm is that most kids within the age range are the correct size for the cc limitations, is was not a big problem. Agree, there are exceptions like your kid. My son began his atv fun on a LT50 that we bought new in Mexico when he was 5. He learned to ride with alot of supervision. When he was 7, he got to ride a lt80 on occasion. At 7 1/2, he got a 90. Now at 9, the 90 produces about 19hp and will hit 60+mph. He rides dunes, trails, and races on mx tracks. On occasion, he is allowed to ride a Banshee or Raptor if we are going from camp to camp or camp to a meeting spot IF he follows me and IF there are no major hills.

What I object to would be the parents who buy the big atv's for their kids when their kids are too small or too stupid to ride safely. It is that simple. Some back woods idiot puts his 3 year old on a 500cc Banshee and talks about how good he can ride. That is such BS. WHen the kid dies or is hurt in a major way, the Ozark idiot parent with either blame the atv or take up a torch and be a anti atv leader -- Not to mention providing the news with another instance where a youth was injured riding these "bad" machines.

Protecting Kids from their parents?? Probably. Is it a good thing??? In most cases. Should the rules be bent?? In special circumstances.

 

I agree that there are a lot of parents who simply aren't thinking...buying raptors for their 8 year olds and bragging about it. But I also think the AMA and Safety Institute need to wake up a little. Perhaps someone who can count to more than three should join their ranks?

Why can't there be more classes? Why not...

50cc for 6-8
90cc for 9-11
125cc for 12-14
200cc for 15, 16

Why don't the ATV manufacturers make larger machines for the bigger kids using the 90cc motors? You mentioned you can get 60+ out of a 90cc in the little frame. Why don't they make a larger framed machine using the same souped up engine? Sure, it probably won't go more than 40 when moving the larger tires and frame (which should only be around 320lbs), but the machine will be more capable to haul the larger child around.

As it stands, it's redicoulous to think a 15 year old can hop off his 90cc and onto a Praire 650 on his 16th birthday. They're entirely different machines. The only alternatives are to not let your larger or older child ride until he/she is old enough to ride the larger machines (with NO experiance) or to "break the rules" and put them on something "not recommended."

Now, as to the parents...I fully agree that parents need to take ownership of the training of their children in this sport. I will not let my 11 year old drive out of my eyesite. He really handles the machine well, and I've no reason to doubt his abilities. But he's too young to understand it is what he DOESN'T know that will hurt him, so I take the time to watch him and ride with him, and instruct him on new techniques and obstacles as we go. Even with this, I have a class for MYSELF scheduled because I know it's what I DON'T know that will hurt me too. If there is an opening, he'll be riding with me in the class, otherwise, he'll be there watching. His younger brothers have already begun their training on a more limited basis.

In short, I don't and won't depend on the AMA to train my kid. But it is unfortunate that when it comes time to move my child to a more suitable machine, for HIS safety, I need to ignore the "safety recommendations" to do so.

 

a high five to Pechmial!!!!!!!

 

All good points. On the 90cc, in the water cooled form, it can easily pull 350 pounds. Currently, the youth atv's average about 225 pounds without rider or fluids. When my 200 pounds hops aboard for a spin, that is 425 pounds at least. I can easily race and win Blasters with some porting, pipe and carb. Granted, the automatic trans will require some additional maintenance but it is fun to set up for the different tracks, conditions, etc.

By the way, Kasea is about to introduce a 250cc 4 stroke atv in a Blaster frame. The good thing about this atv is that it is a TWO CYLINDER 4 STROKE!!!! I should have one soon for eval. Perhaps the AMA etc will allow the 12-15 year olds who meet some conditions, with be allowed to race this type of setup.

 

Correct me if im wrong,But arent the age limits just a recomondation,there is no set law,is there?

 

mrhp1, you'll have to check your state's legislation, but in Minnesota...

"State law prohibits youth under the age of 16 years from operating adult sized ATVs on public lands and waters, including public roads and road right of ways."

They define "adult sized ATVs" as "Over 90cc."

They then go on to describe how the child must be large enough to meet certain conditions (more than three inches clearance between seat and top inseam when child stands on footpegs, ect) that my 11 year old meets on some ADULT sized ATV's.

They do, sensibly, include an explanation that kids often over estimate their abilities and certain other factors. These are all things overcome by parents who exercise proper caution when training their kids to ride, ride with them, AND use common sense when purchasing a larger machine.

Interestingly enough, the same document, which is available as a PDF file from the MN DNR Website, mentions NO restrictions as the size of OHM (Off Highway Motocycle) my child can ride. All he'd need is the safety permit. I wonder if that's the same as their safety permit for ATV's? You know, the one where they mail the test to you, and then you mail back the results (I was concientious, I made my son read the manual and take the test), I wonder how many parents simply fill in the answers and send it back? I wonder how many bother in the first place?

Honestly, I wish they would make a Recon sized machine with a 90cc engine, I'd buy it. My son could then ride safely AND legally. Unfortunately, between the manufacturers and the senselss legislation, it seems we need to break the rules if we want our kids to ride safely.

 

Age limits were voluntary for the manufacturers until a few years ago. Now it is just a free for all except for AMA racing -- just like Little League. Rules are the rules.

I have talked with a few pro built KX85 atv riders. They really don't have problems with the rules and plan on fitting one of my CVT water cooled 90's in a frame for a try.

 

Pechmial,
I was wondering if you know for SURE if these are MN LAWS?I checked my ASI Matrix [im a licensed ASI ATV Safety Instructor]and looked under MN laws regarding ATV use and can see nothing regarding the manufactures age/cc recommendations as LAW in MN?

In Michigan,as long as you are at least 12 yrs old,have a ATV safety training certificate and are under VISUAL supervision,you can ride whatever CC ATV you want.

April 28th of 1988,all the manufactures of ATV [except Polaris] agreed to not manufacture/sell 3 wheelers anymore,include warning emblems on ATVs,provide free safety training for new purchasers,and set forth age/cc RECOMENDATIONS.This was called a CONCENT DECREE.Dealers cannot legally sell a ATV outside of this age/cc RECOMEDATION,but it happens alot.In other words,you could not go into a dealership and tell the salesman that you wanted to purchase a 250cc for your 14yr old.He is not suppose to legally sell you it because it exceeds the 90cc RECOMENDATION for a 12-15yr old.But after your 14yr old receives his ATV safety certificate and is under adult visual supervision while riding,he can ride what he wants in regards to cc size.Its worth looking into deeper or perhaps my ASI matrix is wrong?Either way,im concerned and awaiting your response.

Best Regards,
Bill

 

Bill, if you'd go to this link here (be sure you have acrobat installed, it's a PDF) and go to page 24 (page 25 in the PDF) at the bottom what I am talking about. This is the MN DNR's 2001-2002 RMV Regulation Summary.

It uses the phrase "State law prohibits..." This is where I got the test I quoted in my message of the 14th. It applies to public lands, waters, roads, and right of ways. Perhaps I am wrong in assuming state trails are "public lands." I sure hope so, and if you have information to the contrary, I'd love to hear it.

Even shows a picture of a kid on a Honda (Recon maybe?) with that big circle and diagonal line through it.

Page 26 (27 in the PDF) goes on to say "It is unlawful for..." and then lists the age breakdowns. Basically, kids under 12 can ONLY operate an ATV on private land. The 12 to 16 range specfically limits the rider to 90cc or less.

Please take a look at it, I am open to the possibility I am misinterpreting it, but it looks pretty clear to me. While your at it, take a look at the Off Highway Motorcycle limits. No mention is made of CC limitations.

BTW, I am planning a trip to the Piaute Trail system in Utah next year (late June, early July). I've not done extensive searching yet, but it appears my 8 year old is legal to ride there. Dunno what CC limits might be in Utah.