I just spoke to my dealer last night, and learned something about the oil selection for ATV's. I asked him about switching to synthetic oil after sufficient break-in time. He does not believe that atv's should be using synthetic oil - in most cases. His reasoning is this - synthetic oil does not (for lack of a better word) "stick" to mechanical parts as well when the engine is sitting (i.e. it sits in your garage for a week between rides). Those exposed parts inside the engine will begin to rust (steel does hold water - hold a blow torch up against a piece of steel on a summer day - it will sweat like crazy). In addition, those exposed parts will be rubbing when you start the machine again, causing problems we all can imagine. The only time he thinks that synthetic oil is ok is if you ride everyday, so the oil does not settle out as much. As he put it, "I'd rather give up a little bit of performance for better protection." I guess it boils down to personal preferance, and how often you ride. He said that AC is going with synthetic oils in the sleds this year, and he isn't happy about it, since the machines sit for 9 months of the year. He said that guys will just go out and fire up the machines after they sit for so long, and wonder why they damage the engine.

Just another log to throw on the fire...

 

My understanding is that you should never use a pure synthetic oil in your auto clutch machines. They cause the clutches to slip too much. I actually run a semi-synthetic oil. I have never had a problem in any of my machines.
I have never heard the rust part before. I guess I don't let them set that long between rides to let the rust build up. even during the winter. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

 

Your local dealer in Slippery Rock, I think needs to readup on synthetics. The reason they are superior to dinosaur oil is because the molecules are all the same size and they are much smaller. Instead of running off of lubricated parts, they actually go into the pores in the metal displacing any moisture and act like small ball bearing on startup of moving parts. Synthetics also do not thicken up when the engine is cold so it flows more freely and it doesn't lose it's lubricating properties when it gets extremely hot. It is not subject to thermal breakdown at high temps like dino oil. In a single cylinder machine, the oil gets much hotter than with your car. You don't have the oil capacity, cooling ability and the engines generally turn higher RPM's. Therefore, with all these factors against dino oils, synthetics are superior in small engine applications.

Now as for using synthetics in wet clutch machines. It is ok to use as long as the little circle on the back that has the certifications doesn't say "Energy Conserving". If it has "enery conserving" don't use use in wet clutch machines. It will not bother Autos at all.

 

Just posting what he told me. I guess everybody has their opinion. He just said that he has seen several engines come in for repair that had used the synthetic oils, and all had problems with excessive wear from not being lubricated enough. I don't know if the owners didn't take proper care of the oil as far as changing it often enough, and keeping the level correct.

Like I said, just posting his view. I'm sure I didn't explain it as well as he could, but it made sense to me. But, what do I know?

 

The one thing that could cause the situation you describe is the engines weren't fully broken in yet or the oil not changed often enough. If an engine is broken in fully or correctly, synthetics will not allow the engine to get broke in. They are too slippery and will not soak into parts that have been glazed over by improper break in procedures. Another thing that arises is when a person has used Dino oil for an extended period of time and doesn't change it enough, it will cook and form a coating on parts similar to varnish. The other parts will wear to accomodate this coating. You then change to synthetics and it disolves the deposits and now you have excessive clearances and with syntheics not having larger molecules it won't fill the gaps and wear increases further. It then becomes a vicious cycle.

Another thing to add to this discussion. On a purely molecular level, you actually get more oil for lubrication in synthetics than Dino oil due to the fact that the molecules are smaller and uniform in size so there are more of them in a quart. Think of it in this way. How many ping pong ***** (synthetic molecules)can fit in a 55 gallon drum vs. a mixture of tennis, baseball, softballs and basketballs (dino molecules)in the same 55 gallon drum. That's the difference between the two.

 

I think your dealer needs to do some research on synthetic oil. First and most important, conventional motor oil can be used with the auto clutch as long as it does not contain friction modifiers. Most current motor oil does. As mentioned by minehunter these oils are labeled energy conserving, don't use them. As far as synthetics go, check out the Amsoil website or the Mobil website for info on synthetics. Amsoil make a 0W40 specifically for ATV use. I have done a lot of research and have come to the conclusion that syntetics are far superior under all conditions.

Cheers Jim

 

I know that when the synthetics came out, one of the positives of the synthetics is that it DOES stick to the parts better instead of running down into your oil pan when you shut off the engine. The logic was that when you start your vehicle with dino oil, the first few seconds you actually had no oil and that's where 90 percent of the wear transpired in your engine. Welcome synthetic. Several of the synthetic oil bottles used to say (I haven't checked lately) that the synthetics had electrical properties that were opposite to the negatively charged engine (part of the ground circuit) and that the synthetic was actually attracted to the metal.

The military has been using syntheitc in their equip for YEARS before it was available to the public. I remember reading in a popular mechanic magazine where they were saying that the synthetic oil would stay on the parts even if the reserve was drained. This was important to the military in things like helicopters where the crank case would get hit by a bullet but the chopper could still function long enough to get to the ground. This isnt possible with dino oils.

I have to agree with minehunter.

The only thing I would add is that the synthetic molecules ARE smaller, so running a very light weight synthetic could cause slight compression losses. Most of the guys here that run synthetics run a 10w-40 or heaver pure synthetic or they run a blend that gives them the best of both worlds. I have read many places where credible sources are saying as soon as you add synthetics, your wear STOPS. Apparently the synthetics work so well that the logic is to break you engine in with dino oil or you might never break you engine in. This particular proble has been observed in racing situations where the engines weren't breaking in properly when running straight sythetic in a new engine.

I'd recommend some more research, there's tons of good information in the forums about the pro's and con's of dino and synthetic. Do a search on synthetic or oil in the Arctic Cat forum and you'll get some great hits with links to other sites that have done some professional testing. Or, check out my post with some links that are already provided here.

EtherNut

 

both your dealer and your statement about steel are wrong. For example I just check my rockchucker press, it's been sitting for six months ( I use mobil 1 on it of course ) there's still plenty of oil sticking on it nice and all the way up the ram. Secondarily steel doesn't hold water, although some cast irons and aluminums may- The water you see even in the summertime when you hold a propane torch on a piece of steel is condensation forming from the propanes combustion itself.

 

IMO, synthetic oils are sold as the end all, be all, you will never have a wear problem again. It just ain't so. If you use dino, change it and filters on a regular basis, the motor will likely last the life of the motors owner. If you neglect a motor that has synthetic oil, the motor will not last.

Synthetic oil is better than dino, but maginally.

Use the oil recommended in your owners manual. People with letters after there name, like PHD, studied the situation and gave you the results. These people have forgotten more about oil than anyone on this form will ever know. I recommend you follow their advice.

Charlie

 

Heh I never said it was the end all be all. After all my brother was able to 'splode' his POS 3.8 ford v6 after a mere 130 thousand miles. ( He's big into mobil 1 too. ) Of course it wasn't a lube problem, kinda/sorta seperated a conrod...