Now we know freeze is full of SHizzziiiitttt. Rear wheel dyno runs show an even great loss in hp on the V compared to most machines. One is due to the cvt and the other is the shaft drive. The numbers he came up with for VE etc... might be correct but the dyno numbers are way off.

Ray,

I have not seen the new 730 run yet. I would love to see what all your numbers end up looking like on the hill.

Mario,

Sorry to hear about the crank. The way that thing ran it is amazing the motor lasted this long. (that is meant to sound like a good thing)

 

Freeze, is 103% VE possable with the "right" intake and airbox?
Majorecho, your right on the "money."

 

I could give a crap what a dyno says, more over I do know what the VForce is capable of. I also know what the DS/Rotax is capable of. We all know that loose dyno and tight dynos are everywhere. When we talk about dyno numbers is just a qualifying reference and that's it. If Ken tells me that his motor is producing somewhere in the 80's at the crank and then he smokes my by 14 lengths, I got no reason to think any different. When Ray Fundy tells me that I should look into a builder OTHER than him for my DS work - you got to respect that. I'm sure that Mr. Fundy has a few more hours on the bench than just about 99 percent of the people out there right now...... Maybe we should just quit worrying about "Freezing" out possible numbers and concentrate more on the thread and giving props where props are do. That's the only reason I started this thread.

See, it's all fun and games until someone throws a wrench in the monkey's ****.

 

So, it seems I hit another nerve. I had a run in with a few guys, even MisterHP and his "support team". When he made claims of some motor work he had done on a 800cc DS, I told him the math said he could do better and get about 10HP more out of this motor. Big fight! Lots of people called me a crack pot, told me I knew nothing, since these guys I was giving advice to was in the industry for years and knew all the tricks. I left it there. A short while back, he added a double carb to his DS, which I also suggested to him, and he got the numbers I told him was possible. He gained 7HP. So, it seem my math do work, even teaching the "pro's" a few new tricks.

Now we have the KFX700 guys claiming 100HP out of a 730cc quad motor, yet no one in the industry, not even the top engineers they have working for formula 1 or the superbike racing teams can come up with the bogus HP claims you guys come up with. Even thought they have a budget of millions and teams of researchers and stuff you can only dream about, they cannot get the power you claim. If the superbike racing teams get a hold of this 100HP motor, they will win every race possible, since nothing in the industry make this sort of output for it's size. You might want to suggest these claims to Kawasaki... I am sure they will believe you....lol. Your technology will make them world champions in no time. Imagine you can be working for them, and if you sell this patent of making so much power, you can be come a Billionaire. Why you wasting your talents on some pure mortals like us, chatting to us on a forum.

The raptor and DS guys that build 700cc and bigger motors get 70HP to 80HP at 8000 RPM plus. Most of them only get these numbers at way past 9000 RPM. The KFX guys come here and tell people they get 100HP plus at lower RPM with similar size motors and with less compression. This motor starts life at 49HP. Check your Kawasaki manual, if you don't believe me. You change cams, pistons, gasflow the head and add a pipe and modify the airbox and you more than double the HP!!!!... please?

You impress the kids and the uninformed people on this site.

Do some research in how accurate your claims are, and then have the guts to post the real numbers. The real pro's that work in this industry are laughing at these claims. A stock KFX will make around 30 to 35HP at the rear wheels. By the time you added all your stuff, you will be lucky to get 50 to 55HP at the rear. That will give you about 60 to 70 HP at the crank, nothing more at 7500 RPM. To make more HP you have to give the motor more RPM or make the capacity bigger.

If you told me you made 100 HP at 11 000 RPM on the KFX, I would have believed you. Now I just see you for what you are. Big talk, bogus claims, and clueless on how a dyno really works.

I have great respect for Mister HP and other pro builders and the claims they make and the effort they put into their work. They are at least accurate and make believable HP claims.

 

I have full respect for guys who have fast quads and do great work on making them go really well, BUT when people come on here and start talking cr@p, then I get upset.

People believe claims others make on here and some will spend big money and get a lie in return. True or false, 98% of people would not know what is fact and what is fiction. I don't think its fair to make false claims like this, do you?

To take it further, some of the KFX guys claiming these high HP figures end up in quad magazines, get fame and glory and in the end, the dyno figures they base their fame on are a bunch of lies. Then, ask them to take their so called 100HP plus KFX and put it on dyno that they don’t own, and we see very different numbers.

It is like me getting on here, claiming a can get 100HP from a DS650, no turbo, and the rest of the DS tuners are a bunch of idiots, since they can't get these numbers. My condition is that I must use my own dyno.

I don’t see how people can let others get away with this sort of cr@p. I can give you a guarantee, that this thread has convinced some KFX guys to spend their money with the guy who built this 100HP KFX. Is that fair to the guy who spend his hard earned cash, gets home, puts the bike on his local dyno and gets less than 80HP? Would you like to be that guy, being tricked into a false claim?

Then you go race, and MisterHP's 800cc DS spank you big time, and you start wondering how is it possible that a DS making around 80HP is beating your "100HP" monster? I am sure that will go down real nice, especially when all your friends think you have the fastest bike around and you realize you have been suckered into believing this claim.

Then to Doctorturbo's question about getting 103% VE. Yes that is possible. I have seen it over and over on LTZ400's and raptors. It is very easy to get 100% VE on a stock motor LTZ or Raptor, by adding a good pipe, right airbox mods and so on. The real pro's can get VE of up to 110%, but anything after that has never been seen in this industry. F1, superbike, pro stock you name it, NO ONE in this industry gets VE of 123 to 135% on a normally aspirated motor. It is unheard of and the technology to do this does not exist. Once you add cams, higher compression pistons and all the high performance internal stuff to a stock motor that was designed to work at around 7000 RPM, VE usually drops and you end up with figures around 90 to 100% if you are lucky. To get them back and over 100% you might have to get a new head and intake port designed with direct downdraft ports and a completely new carb and intake setup.

Superbikes have no problem running VE figures of higher than 100% in stock trim, but then the technology in those motors are very different than the low tech quad motors. The intake, airbox and head design is completely different on superbikes and other racing motors built to make big HP.

 

Hi Freez, our high HP motors peak in the low to high 8000RPM range.
And there is still alot more to gain on these motors, if we had a better head.
You might be off a bit on your HP numbers for the bikes, although you would have be right 20 years ago with the 750HP numbers.
ie: 600 superstock race bikes up here must be dynoed before each race and not be over 110HP at the rear wheel. A stk R-1 makes 180HP at the rear wheel.
You are correct about the CVT it does show low and eratic numbers, thats why we use or engine Dyno with CVT equiped quads. Both our Dyno's read as low or lower then any other dynos we have seen/heard of, stk for stk, mod for mod.
ie: a stk DS 650 makes 37RWHP on our chassis dyno.
A stk V force makes 48HP on our engine dyno (advertised as 50)
A stk RX-1 makes 140-144HP (advertised as 150HP)
Have a good one.
Ray

 

PS Freez, no one claimed 100HP with a 730, 92HP was our best pumpgas 730 so far and 107HP was our best high compression 800 so far.
How do you think an 750-800lb quad/rider can run well into the 4 sec range in 300ft.
Thanks,
Ray

 

There's alot more loss at the RW then you think. ie:a 89HP 730 only shows 64RWHP and this can vary alot.
Ray

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: Freez
I have full respect for guys who have fast quads and do great work on making them go really well, BUT when people come on here and start talking cr@p, then I get upset.

Yup!!!! you make me upset LOL

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

You are right, 20 years ago 100% Vol/eff was agood motor, not any more and if a 1000 superbike doesn't have 220-230+HP it's not worth running.
Freez, just find someone with one of our 730 or 800 motors and run them.
Have a good one.
Ray