So what increases Torque
Dec 21, 2005 | 06:28 PM
#61
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So what increases Torque
Originally posted by: DSNUT
I think it is really cool when people are interested in learning new stuff. The best thing would probably be to find yourself a diagram or a cross section of a small engine on the internet and familiarize yourself with the different parts. I will always be at the mercy of someone else until I figure out how it works.
Trust me when I say you do not want to go around asking dolts such as myself for information on your quad motor all your life because at least 50% of my knowledge is certifiable crap and the other 50% just hasen't been certified yet![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Ron
I think it is really cool when people are interested in learning new stuff. The best thing would probably be to find yourself a diagram or a cross section of a small engine on the internet and familiarize yourself with the different parts. I will always be at the mercy of someone else until I figure out how it works.
Trust me when I say you do not want to go around asking dolts such as myself for information on your quad motor all your life because at least 50% of my knowledge is certifiable crap and the other 50% just hasen't been certified yet![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Ron
Its cool how the net puts so much info at our fingertips!!!
I hear you on the certifiable stuff, and I remember a younger rider on another site that though he had never done any of the work, or even owned any of the products this kid was a walking encyclopedia of information on much of it. No he wasnt a pro, and it seems he just had an excelent memory and took the time to research stuff.
Only problem was that it wasnt thorough knowledge, and he got stumped alot and without first hand experience you can only get so far etc, but still I figure its better than none.
So yea learning is a great thing, and figuring stuff out is fun too, but you just cant beat it when it all comes together and the damn thing fires up without any problems [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Dec 21, 2005 | 06:29 PM
#62
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So what increases Torque
Originally posted by: DSNUT
Knuts,
Please forgive my ignorance, I build houses for a living and am just learning about small engines. I am only guessing on this.
Ron
Knuts,
Please forgive my ignorance, I build houses for a living and am just learning about small engines. I am only guessing on this.
Ron
Dude, if you are asking for forgivness on you ignorance........I am not sure I want to know where that puts me [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Dec 21, 2005 | 06:44 PM
#63
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So what increases Torque
Lol[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] One of my personality flaws is found in that I always talk like I know everything, even when I am thinking outloud about something I actually know very little. As I get older I try very hard to reserve making that impression only on things that I actually know what it is I speak of. Dragon, you are not guilty of this infraction. I hold the belief that people who try to sound like they know everything are truly an annoyance to those who actually do.
I was trying my best to make sure Knutz understands that I am unequivocally subordinating myself to his knowledge and experience while I explained how I came to my conclusion.
There are a lot of teachers on this forum. I am happy to be a student, I just don't sound like it sometimes.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Ron
I was trying my best to make sure Knutz understands that I am unequivocally subordinating myself to his knowledge and experience while I explained how I came to my conclusion.
There are a lot of teachers on this forum. I am happy to be a student, I just don't sound like it sometimes.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Ron
Dec 21, 2005 | 06:52 PM
#64
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So what increases Torque
DSNut, actually I am guilty of that in more then one case outside of the net. Around here, I would never let anyone know I was even uninformed...Drives people nuts [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
In this though, I really want to not only know, but completly understand the whole working picture. So please continue to throw out your thoughts, let the big dogs agree or rip apart. No offence to anyone out there, but I don't take anything anyone says at complete face value. I go out and cross reference, and compare the notes. But even a wrong piece of information gives direction to the continuing research.....
In this though, I really want to not only know, but completly understand the whole working picture. So please continue to throw out your thoughts, let the big dogs agree or rip apart. No offence to anyone out there, but I don't take anything anyone says at complete face value. I go out and cross reference, and compare the notes. But even a wrong piece of information gives direction to the continuing research.....
Dec 22, 2005 | 12:00 AM
#66
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So what increases Torque
Originally posted by: DSNUT
Lol[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] One of my personality flaws is found in that I always talk like I know everything, even when I am thinking outloud about something I actually know very little. As I get older I try very hard to reserve making that impression only on things that I actually know what it is I speak of. Dragon, you are not guilty of this infraction. I hold the belief that people who try to sound like they know everything are truly an annoyance to those who actually do.
I was trying my best to make sure Knutz understands that I am unequivocally subordinating myself to his knowledge and experience while I explained how I came to my conclusion.
There are a lot of teachers on this forum. I am happy to be a student, I just don't sound like it sometimes.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Ron
Lol[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] One of my personality flaws is found in that I always talk like I know everything, even when I am thinking outloud about something I actually know very little. As I get older I try very hard to reserve making that impression only on things that I actually know what it is I speak of. Dragon, you are not guilty of this infraction. I hold the belief that people who try to sound like they know everything are truly an annoyance to those who actually do.
I was trying my best to make sure Knutz understands that I am unequivocally subordinating myself to his knowledge and experience while I explained how I came to my conclusion.
There are a lot of teachers on this forum. I am happy to be a student, I just don't sound like it sometimes.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Ron
And thanks for showing us (and myself especially) just how well it could be done. Trust me your not the only one with this problem, and I also find it even harder to keep on top of on the forums since its only typed words and you cant relate any sarcasm or body langage etc. Damn I know I try just like you said earlier, but with time so short and typing so fast to try and get the point across etc I know I totally mess it up often.
Still I think its better to get the info we do have out there, and just let the people who judge everyone get over it.
Dec 22, 2005 | 12:25 AM
#67
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So what increases Torque
No need to appologize for not knowing something. I'm happy to help you learn. Everyone starts out somewhere, and builds from there. You guys have actually done rather well at learning from eachother, and that is admirable.
As for rod length. As the stroke is increased, your right, it would push the piston above the deck if the added stroke is not compensated for. This added hight can be compensated for in several ways.
One of the ways to do this would be to shorten the rod exactly 1/2 of the added stroke. That would be the least desireable way to do things because it adds greater side load to the piston and cylinder because of the deminished rod/stroke ratio. In general, the longer the rod, the less wear and less frictional loss.
Another way compensate would be to raise the deck hight. Raising the deck can be done with a spacer under the cylinder [common on "long rod" Banshee's], or a taller cylinder. The problem with this method is the complication of changing the valve train an equal distance on a 4 stroke motor. It is somewhat common on "tall deck" automotive motors, but those motors do reqiure a custom valvetrain.
The most popular way to compensate for the added stroke is with the piston pin hight. If the stroke is increases 8 MM, relocating the piston pin 4 MM closer to the top of the piston will balance your deck hight. It is the most advantagous and easiest way to get your required deck hight adjustment for the increased stroke.
As for rod length. As the stroke is increased, your right, it would push the piston above the deck if the added stroke is not compensated for. This added hight can be compensated for in several ways.
One of the ways to do this would be to shorten the rod exactly 1/2 of the added stroke. That would be the least desireable way to do things because it adds greater side load to the piston and cylinder because of the deminished rod/stroke ratio. In general, the longer the rod, the less wear and less frictional loss.
Another way compensate would be to raise the deck hight. Raising the deck can be done with a spacer under the cylinder [common on "long rod" Banshee's], or a taller cylinder. The problem with this method is the complication of changing the valve train an equal distance on a 4 stroke motor. It is somewhat common on "tall deck" automotive motors, but those motors do reqiure a custom valvetrain.
The most popular way to compensate for the added stroke is with the piston pin hight. If the stroke is increases 8 MM, relocating the piston pin 4 MM closer to the top of the piston will balance your deck hight. It is the most advantagous and easiest way to get your required deck hight adjustment for the increased stroke.
Dec 22, 2005 | 01:02 AM
#69
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So what increases Torque
Originally posted by: DSNUT
Knuts,
I know you are an expert on this stuff. I will not even dream of arguing with you on the stroke thing but I would like to know where I went wrong. I mentioned rod length in conjunction with crank offset or throw for the following reason:
Lets say you have 4 mil of clearance between your valves and your piston at their closest point in a revolution and you want to do an 8 mil stroker. If you increase the crank throw by 8 mil, it seems as though you would cause the piston to travel 8 mil further at the top as well as the bottom of the throw. I guessed that this would cause the piston to conflict with the valves. I then assumed the way to get an 8 mil stroke increase would be to only offset the crank by an additional 4 mil and shorten the rod by 4 mil. It seemed to me like this would give you a full 8 mil stroke increase at the bottom of the piston travel but the piston would come up, theoretically, to the same point at the top as it did before maintaing a suitable valve clearance.
Please forgive my ignorance, I build houses for a living and am just learning about small engines. I am only guessing on this.
Ron
Knuts,
I know you are an expert on this stuff. I will not even dream of arguing with you on the stroke thing but I would like to know where I went wrong. I mentioned rod length in conjunction with crank offset or throw for the following reason:
Lets say you have 4 mil of clearance between your valves and your piston at their closest point in a revolution and you want to do an 8 mil stroker. If you increase the crank throw by 8 mil, it seems as though you would cause the piston to travel 8 mil further at the top as well as the bottom of the throw. I guessed that this would cause the piston to conflict with the valves. I then assumed the way to get an 8 mil stroke increase would be to only offset the crank by an additional 4 mil and shorten the rod by 4 mil. It seemed to me like this would give you a full 8 mil stroke increase at the bottom of the piston travel but the piston would come up, theoretically, to the same point at the top as it did before maintaing a suitable valve clearance.
Please forgive my ignorance, I build houses for a living and am just learning about small engines. I am only guessing on this.
Ron
What don is saying is if you want a 8mm stroker you move the crank pin 4mm out from center. This will swing the piston 4mm higher into the head(which is a BAD thing) and 4mm down. to correct this you make a piston with the wristpin moved 4mm closer to the top of the piston. This will give you the stock deck height at TDC by compensatiing for the TDC 4mm and then will drop the piston the FULL 8mm at BDC.
You can do this buy shortening the rod also, instead of getting a offset piston, but you now have made steeper side angles by using the shorter rod,and will eventally cause piston slap.
Bigger.
Dec 22, 2005 | 04:36 PM
#70
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So what increases Torque
Originally posted by: Knutz
There are NO constants, but one generaly accepted rule of thumb, the longer the stroke will create more torque for a given displacement. A short stroke/ big bore motor, of xxxcc's, will not have the same TQ of a small bore/ long stroke motor of the same displacement, although it may make more HP. [this example is provided all other factors are =]
There are NO constants, but one generaly accepted rule of thumb, the longer the stroke will create more torque for a given displacement. A short stroke/ big bore motor, of xxxcc's, will not have the same TQ of a small bore/ long stroke motor of the same displacement, although it may make more HP. [this example is provided all other factors are =]
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