THE MIDDLE SPRING! or upper spring if we're talking dual rate. If you look at the TCS sag control shocks, which are modified Works shocks, the very light upper spring is about 4 inches long with lots of "crossover spacers" under it. These crossover spacers limit the amount of compression for each individual spring, or at least the small springs that ride on the shock body where the crossover spacers slide. Once these small springs are compressed to the point where they use up all the spaces between the crossover spacers, these light springs are done, and the large mainspring below is the only spring working.
....So what we want is a nice light middle or upper spring, with a good stack of crossover spacers, and a main spring that can handle big landings. A truly progressive spring stack. The light upper springs give you sag and a smooth ride, the big main gives you spring power to land the big jumps.
.....My works steelers came with all stiff springs. Top, Middle and main bottom spring were all very high rate, stiff springs. Well, what was the point of that? So I bought a bunch of new springs and spacers to mess around with, and noticed the way the highly regarded TCS shocks were set up. I also talked with Sandy at Works a bunch about what I was trying to do. He is a lot of help.
.....So now I've got the 500 lb, 1,3" helper spring on top. that's semi-stiff, the very soft 240 lb. 2.8" spring in the middle, and a beefy 220 lb. 11.75" mainspring.
.....I'm not done messing around with spring and spacer combinations, but this may be what I'll come back to. I'm having a hard time coming up with anything wrong with this set-up. It corners better, doesn't lift into a hard turn, is way smooth in fast and roough stuff, and handles nose dives off jumps just fine. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]

 

Now this is the kind of information that would make me want to buy new shocks - knowing exactly what the heck all of this stuff does. Thanks for doing all of the research for us. Glad to know you can build odd looking boats and fine tune shocks for ATVs. So, what else can you do?

 

I am gonna try the same thing fourlix did with my Rs triple rates. Thanks Fourlix!

 

So it seems to me,,, we need to get our hands on that 4" CT racing "TCS" spring. The triple rate gives you the good ride, with the soft middle spring. But the longer 4" spring, set up as a dual rate like the TCS with lots of crossover spacers, gives you the SAG and the RIDE.
Really, the works shocks are what TCS starts with. They gut them and revalve them, using a shim stack for dampening.
.....But the works shocks are just fine to start, especially with rezzies. IT's the SPRINGS! Works sends out their shocks with too much spring, a lighter middle spring is a big improvement, but a lighter, longer spring would give more sag with a great ride.
.....Let's find some. I guess CT racing and Works is where to start.

 

Actually, a TCS shock sits on the main spring when you are mounted on the bike, it's bottomed out on the crossovers. The only time the "sag" spring comes into play for ride quality is when the wheel drops out into a low spot.

On the other hand, my Elka shocks have a small sag spring, and a heavier middle spring. The sag spring is bottommed when you are on the quad, while the lighter spring is not. You have a little travel on the light spring until it crosses over into the main spring.

Axis uses a setup between these two on their dual rates. The upper spring is not real soft, not real firm. It's close to bottomming on the crossovers when you're on the bike.

Of these 3 shocks, they all perform differently.

My TCS's were setup for MX, but I've revalved them lighter to work better in XC. My Elkas are setup for XC racing/light MX, and the Axis shocks are setup for XC racing with some jumping in mind (and a heavier rider).

The TCS's have the poorest ride quality on a rough trail. They will take the largest jumps and corner well due to their large amounts of sag. The small chop will beat you up, they will absorb the large hits without bottomming, but transfer some harshness to the rider. Their ability to take hard hits without bottomming is a big confidence builder though if you can stand the pounding.

The Axis are the best feeling in the rough trails and will take some hard hits from roots and rocks, however they do not jump good at all. I have a race or two on these shocks and liked them. They were a little harsh in the small chop, and if you hit a jump or a high speed transition, plan on bottomming (not nearly as hard as stock though, especially on the front)

The Elka's don't feel quite as good as the Axis in the woods, but they do jump MUCH better. The soak up the hard hits in the woods (roots, rocks, high speed transitions, etc) really well, but the small chop gets kinda harsh at times (this may be a chassis problem on my machine as well, still investigating). They seem to take high speed transitions well, but could use a little more progressive damping on the rear for the really hard hits. The'll be an all around good setup once I get the low travel harshness out of them.

One thing to watch when "rolling your own" sag shock is the rebound damping. Keep in mind that with light weight springs at the end of the travel, your rebound will slow dramatically, causing the shock to "pack up" until it gets into the heavier main spring, which can make ride quality suffer significantly and cause other handling problems. The rebound setting is critical on a heavily sagged shock.

 

WOW, great POST!! 1986atc250r, Thanks a bunch. SO the TCS spring must be even softer than the 2.8" works spring. With the set-up I have now the only thing I'm missing is a little more sag. If I could replace the top 1.3" 500# with something lighter that might do it. The 2.8" Works spring is perfect for ride quality, hitting small rough stuff, it really smoothes things out. The big 220# Main handles anything big.
....How do they rate these springs anyway? That big main is called a 220#, 11.7" long, and is stiff as a board, while the 240#, 2.8" is quite soft, with a small wire diameter. When I talk to Sandy at Works I always measure wire diameter so we (I) don't get confused.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]

 

The TCS top spring is VERY light. You can compress the spring assembly by hand enough to easily remove the bottom spring retainer. Not the case with either the Axis or Elkas (not nearly as easily anyways).

Springs are usually rated in lbs per inch of compression - 100 lbs spring would take 100 lbs of force to compress 1 inch, 200 lbs of force to compress 2 inches, etc...

Gabe

 

This is good stuff guys,keep it up I am learning alot here.
1986atc250r
If you dont mind me asking,What would you recomend for my DS?
I ride mostly Dunes & desert and come across alot of trails with tons of whoops!I dont take to the air very often so I wouldnt want them to stiff,but would love a shock that would soak up rough dune conditions and not dive on the corners.
I am a 200lb rider
Jeff

 

I've ridden both Elka and Stock on a DS650, the rest of my experience has been on my 400EX.

My experience on the DS was mostly sand dragging only, so I wasn't able to really critically evaluate the differences very well - both felt really plush compared to my EX, but I didn't get a chance to test them out in the sand whoops.

Any of the shocks will likely do well for you if setup properly. On a DS, I'd probably be inclined to stay more with a 5/8" shafted & large body shock like an Axis, Works Pro series, PEP, new style TCS, or Elka. Be sure to get reservoirs.

My best suggestion is to talk to each of these companies, get a feel for who you think did the best job listening to your requests, and go with them. Also make sure they have a warranty so that you can send them back for free tweaking if necessary.

Out of the shocks I've got at my house (described in the above posts), if I had to pick out a shock that I thought you'd be happiest with, it would probably be the Custom Axis. If I remember correctly, they are making them for the DS now.

 

Thanks for quick reply 1986atc250r,my last trip out, the dunes were chopped as hell plus did some good sand trail riding seemed like I must have hit 1000 whoops(I am sore this week)It really had me thinking about upgrading my shocks
Thanx again
Jeff