DS650 Trail Riding
#11
03-15-2002, 03:06 PM
Hey Chavychav, thought about the new Suzuki? It's got reverse and a great motor, and is only a few pounds heavier than the Cannondale.
I think a DS is great out on these western mining roads and trails. We have a Raptor too, my 13 year old son's, and I think the DS is way better on the trails than it is. Of course my son dissagrees, and thinks the DS is way too big and heavy. He weighs 90 lbs, and is only 5'1", and is working on his frequent flyer mileage. You will see him in ATV action Magazine jumping his little bro's Raptorette in the May issue.
....The DS can be a handfull, especially stock. The lack of caster in the front steering geometry can be a real handfull, and the front shocks suck, especially on rocky western trails. Once these little items are taken care of,TimmyBoy Upper a-arms and Works shocks, it is a truly great quad. I am 210#, 6', and think the DS is IT. The Raptors gear spacing sucks for trail riding. First gear is too high and second too big a jump past that. 22" tires help ground clearance a bunch. Ramble ramble.....
I think a DS is great out on these western mining roads and trails. We have a Raptor too, my 13 year old son's, and I think the DS is way better on the trails than it is. Of course my son dissagrees, and thinks the DS is way too big and heavy. He weighs 90 lbs, and is only 5'1", and is working on his frequent flyer mileage. You will see him in ATV action Magazine jumping his little bro's Raptorette in the May issue.
....The DS can be a handfull, especially stock. The lack of caster in the front steering geometry can be a real handfull, and the front shocks suck, especially on rocky western trails. Once these little items are taken care of,TimmyBoy Upper a-arms and Works shocks, it is a truly great quad. I am 210#, 6', and think the DS is IT. The Raptors gear spacing sucks for trail riding. First gear is too high and second too big a jump past that. 22" tires help ground clearance a bunch. Ramble ramble.....
#12
03-15-2002, 04:02 PM
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DSAPP,
Hey man you've got a good all around quad right now. I do however think that you would love the DS. I wouldn't rush things and get yourself in a bind, but perhaps you'll be able to get a DS in the future. I can tell you that going from a 400ex to a DS650 you'll definitely notice the power difference. The biggest thing that you would have to get used to would be the handling & size, which is easy to adjust to. My best friend has a trick 250R that he uses for MX and he's gotten quite a bit of ride time on my DS. He can ride the DS like nobody's business and says that it is one of, if not THE easiest quad to adjust to and just get on and ride.
SD
Hey man you've got a good all around quad right now. I do however think that you would love the DS. I wouldn't rush things and get yourself in a bind, but perhaps you'll be able to get a DS in the future. I can tell you that going from a 400ex to a DS650 you'll definitely notice the power difference. The biggest thing that you would have to get used to would be the handling & size, which is easy to adjust to. My best friend has a trick 250R that he uses for MX and he's gotten quite a bit of ride time on my DS. He can ride the DS like nobody's business and says that it is one of, if not THE easiest quad to adjust to and just get on and ride.
SD
#13
03-15-2002, 04:12 PM
The front caster issue isn't as bad as its made out to be if the worthless tires are gotten rid of and the toe is readjusted properly for the rider weight and suspension set-up.
The front shocks are no worse than the factory shocks on any honda or yamaha, the factory preload setting just sucks. As far as standard non-rezy oil shocks go - they are prime.
Magazines make a comment about steering/handling without bothering to experiment with adjustments and tires on one of the best suspensions offered on a factory quad, and people just run with it.
I have no steering problems, even at 80mph, and I can nosedive a jump on purpose with no worries, and I'm running stock a-arms and shocks.
Don't get me wrong, aftermarket a-arms and shocks will improve handling, just as they will improve handling on any quad, but they are no more necesary for the DS than any other.
The front shocks are no worse than the factory shocks on any honda or yamaha, the factory preload setting just sucks. As far as standard non-rezy oil shocks go - they are prime.
Magazines make a comment about steering/handling without bothering to experiment with adjustments and tires on one of the best suspensions offered on a factory quad, and people just run with it.
I have no steering problems, even at 80mph, and I can nosedive a jump on purpose with no worries, and I'm running stock a-arms and shocks.
Don't get me wrong, aftermarket a-arms and shocks will improve handling, just as they will improve handling on any quad, but they are no more necesary for the DS than any other.
#14
03-15-2002, 05:29 PM
Depending on where you ride.....
.....In rough rocky terrain, the DS front shocks will beat you up bad, despite any preload adjustments you make. Too much rebound dampening causes the shocks to not recover quickly enough in rough situations. Repeated small hits puts the shocks into a higher spring rate. We have a lot of rough rocky trails in New Mexico. I bet Colorado's mining roads are a lot like ours. A pair of cheap, relatively, Works Steelers, triple rate, with 210# mainsprings, 240#, 2.8" helpers with 500# helpers for $369 will make a world of difference, and you can add rezzies later.
.....Sand is where you will notice the lack of caster. Toe-out should be set to almost nothing, like 1/8", with rider. The new DS and Baja have less front wheel offset which is supposed to help. 23" front tires help too, directly increasing caster effect by increasing the "trail" which is the distance from where the pivot point of the front steering hits the ground back to the center of the tire patch. The tire patch actually moves forward in sand, which is why increasing caster in sand works so well. Anybody's A-arms fix the caster problem. I have the TimmyBoy uppers, they weigh pounds less and are a quality solution.
....Lots of guys on here say you don't need shocks or a-arms. I don't think they have ridden a DS which has been "fixed". Just one ride is very convincing. I don't think they have the kind of terrain the ROCKY Mountains dishes out. Nose diving off a jump has nothing to do with what I am talking about. That is spring rate and compression dampening and that is not the problem with the DS shocks, excessive rebound dampening is. MX tracks are relatively smooth, with large features. Even whoops are large features compared to the kind of rough rocky trails we have out here.
.....Get one and try it out. Whatever you don't like about it can be fixed. Start with the ride height adjustments and Toe-out and go from there. Tires first, front and rear, 22"& 23" XCT's or Razrs or Bandits, nobody has ever had anything good to say about the Kendas. Bigger tires improves ground clearance as well as steering stability, you lose a little in cornering.
.....Then you can decide for yourself if you need shocks and/or A-arms. Some guys with the +1,+1 A-arms, which increase the leverage on the shock, say the stock shocks work fine with the bigger A-arms. But the DS is big enough for me as is, and I really like the combination of TimmyBoy uppers and Works shocks.
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]
.....In rough rocky terrain, the DS front shocks will beat you up bad, despite any preload adjustments you make. Too much rebound dampening causes the shocks to not recover quickly enough in rough situations. Repeated small hits puts the shocks into a higher spring rate. We have a lot of rough rocky trails in New Mexico. I bet Colorado's mining roads are a lot like ours. A pair of cheap, relatively, Works Steelers, triple rate, with 210# mainsprings, 240#, 2.8" helpers with 500# helpers for $369 will make a world of difference, and you can add rezzies later.
.....Sand is where you will notice the lack of caster. Toe-out should be set to almost nothing, like 1/8", with rider. The new DS and Baja have less front wheel offset which is supposed to help. 23" front tires help too, directly increasing caster effect by increasing the "trail" which is the distance from where the pivot point of the front steering hits the ground back to the center of the tire patch. The tire patch actually moves forward in sand, which is why increasing caster in sand works so well. Anybody's A-arms fix the caster problem. I have the TimmyBoy uppers, they weigh pounds less and are a quality solution.
....Lots of guys on here say you don't need shocks or a-arms. I don't think they have ridden a DS which has been "fixed". Just one ride is very convincing. I don't think they have the kind of terrain the ROCKY Mountains dishes out. Nose diving off a jump has nothing to do with what I am talking about. That is spring rate and compression dampening and that is not the problem with the DS shocks, excessive rebound dampening is. MX tracks are relatively smooth, with large features. Even whoops are large features compared to the kind of rough rocky trails we have out here.
.....Get one and try it out. Whatever you don't like about it can be fixed. Start with the ride height adjustments and Toe-out and go from there. Tires first, front and rear, 22"& 23" XCT's or Razrs or Bandits, nobody has ever had anything good to say about the Kendas. Bigger tires improves ground clearance as well as steering stability, you lose a little in cornering.
.....Then you can decide for yourself if you need shocks and/or A-arms. Some guys with the +1,+1 A-arms, which increase the leverage on the shock, say the stock shocks work fine with the bigger A-arms. But the DS is big enough for me as is, and I really like the combination of TimmyBoy uppers and Works shocks.
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]
#15
03-15-2002, 07:02 PM
fourlicks,
You make some good points and you're right about the majority of trails in the area I ride. Sounds very similiar to what you describe in youre area. I do believe I'll be able to adapt to the DS relatively well and am still, as always, keeping it at the top of the list.
As far as the Suzuki, besides all the unknowns with the as of yet unreleased product, I've never really been a big Suzuki fan. Not that I don't think they make good products, they do. I have friends that swear by them and for good reason, but for me, I only owned 1 street bike from them and had problems. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the quality of the Suzuki product but I've always had great love for Hondas. Now that I have owned a Bombardier product, that trust has extended to their machines.
Now with the Cannondale, I can say I am impressed. Seems they have addressed the major issues and the nearest dealer(3 hours away) has been more than helpful. Still I'm not as sold on it as I am w/ the DS.
I find out next week how much the IRS gets of mine and then its hopefully off to the candy store!
You make some good points and you're right about the majority of trails in the area I ride. Sounds very similiar to what you describe in youre area. I do believe I'll be able to adapt to the DS relatively well and am still, as always, keeping it at the top of the list.
As far as the Suzuki, besides all the unknowns with the as of yet unreleased product, I've never really been a big Suzuki fan. Not that I don't think they make good products, they do. I have friends that swear by them and for good reason, but for me, I only owned 1 street bike from them and had problems. I'm sure it had nothing to do with the quality of the Suzuki product but I've always had great love for Hondas. Now that I have owned a Bombardier product, that trust has extended to their machines.
Now with the Cannondale, I can say I am impressed. Seems they have addressed the major issues and the nearest dealer(3 hours away) has been more than helpful. Still I'm not as sold on it as I am w/ the DS.
I find out next week how much the IRS gets of mine and then its hopefully off to the candy store!
#17
03-16-2002, 02:59 AM
Chevychav:
I rode at Pismo with a guy that was probably 5'6" and 150#. Pismo is not the typical big dunes everyone thinks. We rode the fence line for two days and it is loaded with drop offs, whoops, tight turns, and steep climbs. He loved his quad and was always one of the guys at the front of the pack. The DS is thought of as a big guys quad because it is the only quad a big guy can sit on and not feel like they are sitting in a Yugo with the seat pushed all the way forward. If you are comfortable sitting on it you will be happy with it.
I like the Suz products but, I wouldn't buy a first year quad like this. Look at the problems the Raptor has had with their transmission and that should answer your questions about buying a first model year quad. I will probably end up getting the Suz 400 for my wife but, not the first year they make it.
I rode at Pismo with a guy that was probably 5'6" and 150#. Pismo is not the typical big dunes everyone thinks. We rode the fence line for two days and it is loaded with drop offs, whoops, tight turns, and steep climbs. He loved his quad and was always one of the guys at the front of the pack. The DS is thought of as a big guys quad because it is the only quad a big guy can sit on and not feel like they are sitting in a Yugo with the seat pushed all the way forward. If you are comfortable sitting on it you will be happy with it.
I like the Suz products but, I wouldn't buy a first year quad like this. Look at the problems the Raptor has had with their transmission and that should answer your questions about buying a first model year quad. I will probably end up getting the Suz 400 for my wife but, not the first year they make it.
#18
03-18-2002, 08:44 PM
#19
03-23-2002, 12:56 PM
<< The front caster issue isn't as bad as its made out to be if the worthless tires are gotten rid of and the toe is readjusted properly for the rider weight and suspension set-up.
The front shocks are no worse than the factory shocks on any honda or yamaha, the factory preload setting just sucks. As far as standard non-rezy oil shocks go - they are prime.
Magazines make a comment about steering/handling without bothering to experiment with adjustments and tires on one of the best suspensions offered on a factory quad, and people just run with it.
I have no steering problems, even at 80mph, and I can nosedive a jump on purpose with no worries, and I'm running stock a-arms and shocks.
Don't get me wrong, aftermarket a-arms and shocks will improve handling, just as they will improve handling on any quad, but they are no more necesary for the DS than any other. >>
Can you give some tips on adjusting the stock front end?
#20
03-23-2002, 04:18 PM
23" front tires with 20" Ohtsus on the back is the trick to the Baja. That will increase caster to maybe 6 degrees. 22" rear tires hook up good to, and improve ground clearance for trail riding, but you better get some A-arms to go with or there goes the caster again.
With rider's weight on the machine, adjust your toe-out to 1/8" or less.
Get your sag right in the back, 40% with rider weight I believe, adjust the rear shock spring to get it there, and your chain adjustment. This will save your chain roller, and keep that caster angle from getting out of hand. Stock caster is about 4 or 5 degrees, mismatching tires or mis adjusted suspension can reduce that to 3 degrees. Scary stuff. With upper A-arms you can dial in as much as 10 degrees caster, I am running 9 degrees with 22" rear tires and love it. Setting the front shock preload to soft, lowering the front, will also reduce caster, and screw up the handling.
... What I have done on my DS, larger rear tires and soft front suspension, would be a nightmare if not for the TimmyBoy upper A-arms and their adjustable caster.
With rider's weight on the machine, adjust your toe-out to 1/8" or less.
Get your sag right in the back, 40% with rider weight I believe, adjust the rear shock spring to get it there, and your chain adjustment. This will save your chain roller, and keep that caster angle from getting out of hand. Stock caster is about 4 or 5 degrees, mismatching tires or mis adjusted suspension can reduce that to 3 degrees. Scary stuff. With upper A-arms you can dial in as much as 10 degrees caster, I am running 9 degrees with 22" rear tires and love it. Setting the front shock preload to soft, lowering the front, will also reduce caster, and screw up the handling.
... What I have done on my DS, larger rear tires and soft front suspension, would be a nightmare if not for the TimmyBoy upper A-arms and their adjustable caster.
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