Hey rnl- If your serious about buying a ds you should check out stevens cycle in bay city 517-684-9872 they gave me a good deal $7042 OTD with ORV sticker Everybody else wanted retail for the quad and they are only an hour north. But they might be charging more now you'd have to ask, talk to darlene. Your probably talking about Great Lakes right, I looked at one there they want retail and they didn't know jack. The service guys at stevens are real cool and they know a lot about the ds I talk to them often.

 

Luba: Yeah, great lakes is pretty much worthless. They are high on all their prices. I was thinking of checking out birch run motorsports also, but I'm not sure if they carry ds's or not.

 

Forget Birchrun they don't carry Bombers and cause they suck won't deal. Try Stevens or Reinbolds in Frankenmuth.

 

Something to consider when 'helping' some one decide which to buy.

I find some of the rhetoric about Cannondale posted here curiously similar to ignorant Yamaha and Honda comments about the DS. After all, aren't most of us who have bought recently excited about the fact that new manufacurers are uping the ante and the result is more AND exciting choices than we've had in over 10 years!! Don't report to be enlightened until Cannondale releases the bike, it's tested by experts and most importantly YOU get to ride one.

Surely we are all a little tired of 'defending' our DS's to pin heads that haven't riden one or are experts by simply owning a 400EX or a Shee.

Logical discussion is helpful, but if an aluminum frame is such a nightmare will some one please call EVERY dirtbike manufacturer and tell them what absolute morons they have been.

Let's show any willing manufacturer that we will gladly welcome any new, innovative, exciting, faster, lighter, bigger, smaller, cheaper, stronger, crazier quad they can throw at us.

For a long time I wondered why anyone would spend so much on a new quad with new graphics or whatever when there were so many used ones on the market that were basically the same.

Then Honda first got me thinking (read 400ex) and then Bombardier made it simple. Now as better bikes come out, I've got the money baby, as I know others have too.

For those of you poor, reluctant or just stuck in another time my trusty old Hondas will be making way for the best and brightest to come, whoever the manufaturer is, so make an offer.

Yella Terra
'00 DS650
'91 250X
'87 250X
'85 FL350R

 

CRT Leech You did make one small mistake in your post. Square tubing is actually stronger given the dominant mode of failure being bending(1.05 verses 1 for the round). The round is better in TORSION but is not as stiff(1.4 for stiffness of square verses 1 for round) or as strong and as an added benefit, try welding up 2 round pieces verses square tubing with its nice 90 degree surfaces and see which MIG weld is stronger. Check out "Materials Selection in Mechanical Design" by M.F. Ashby.(The chart is on page 137) I took this graduate class for my senior elective when I was finishing up my Bachelor in Mechanical Engineering. As far as the rectangular rear shape for the box section swingarm. This is FAR stronger in the same dominant mode of failure "bending". I don't want to ramble on forever but strength and stiffness are major concerns in frame design. The only benefit I can see with the round is given a set diameter of the round and square tubing the round will be lighter (only very slightly) and the added stiffness of the square tubing 40% more given the same dimensions I will stick with a square tubed frame. Makes you wonder why they even try to build a round tubed frame, unless they can buy it in bulk and for much cheaper as well as the savings in the cost of paint since the round has less surface area.

P.S. Not to be a smart ***, I just thought you might want to know. I was surprised when I took the class. I used to think round tubing was the sh%t too.

 

One bad thing about aluminum is that it does not have an endurance limit and therfore is not good in fatigue (stress cycles). Steel can be designed so that the stress it sees is about 50% its ultimate tensile strength (roughly the same for compression and bending in a ductile material such as steel) and this will be under its endurance limit so that mathematically in theory will last forever. We know this to not be true but with aluminum to help prevent premature failure the need to make the frames STIFF to help keep the aluminum from cyling. This is why you see Large extremely rectangular section twin spar frames on the CR250 and others that have switched to the perimeter aluminum frame. Don't worry to much about it though if you have an aluminum frame. 5 x 10^8 cylces of stress at 50% the ultimate tensile strength might take 10-20 years under regular use and by then you should not complain about a cracked frame. Aluminum is great for weight savings (mass density of 3.2kg/m3 verses 7.8kg/m3 for steel) so I think overall for anything but the most hard core MXer the aluminum is much better. That is my 2 cents.

CT250R

 

You don't always want stiffness for a vehicle frame. In fact, you want flexibility and the ability to return to the original shape.

As I mentioned, there are NO racing sanctions that would allow a square tubed racing cage. Period.

When square tubing starts to bend, it will soon crimp, break and tear. Round tubing will flex and return, to a degree.

Torsional strentgh is what you want for a frame or roll cage. If square tubing was better, then why would every race car maker spend the extra time and effort making round tube chassis?!

Also, when you have a properly fish-mouthed connection point, you have more area of connection compared to a square tubed connection. So, more welded area would, or should be stronger, eh?

Round tubing is definately not cheaper. I know people that build racing frames and some machinists. Square tubing is cheaper. Also, who cares how cheap it is when your life is on the line!

If it was that much better, don't you think for liability sake, that manufacturers of ATV's, motorcycles and Sand Rail, off-road race cars, stock car, drag racing and any other racing vehicle would use it? They all can't be so wrong and mis-informed.

So, comparing the "facts" from one book, to the real life experience of hundreds, if not thousands of people who put their own *** on the line, I choose round tubing.

I have built VW Baja's and Sand Rails. I researched frame construction and everywhere I have read, they have always stated "Never use square tubing". I don't remember the author, since the book is not with me right now, but the book "How to Make a Baja Bug or Buggy" or something like that, was written by a professional racer. He clearly states that you should never do it. Every magazine I have read have also stated that you need to use round tubing, square tubing is not strong enough.

I won't argue that square may be stiffer, but, that means that when it fails, it breaks instead of bending like round will. When rounds tubing bends, it helps take some of the shock the driver and passenger would have taken. That is the only drawback of using chromoly. It is stiffer, so it tends to bend less before it breaks. Though, it's breaking point is much higher than the mild steel tubing used for racing.

Congratulations on your Bachelors degree. I got my Associates in programming last year.

Laters,
CRT_Leech

 

Ahh, that is some usefull information. Kinda rare in this forum :-)

So, if the Canondale turns out to be the DS killer, then I won't be as worried about the longevity of the frame. Unless Canondale doesn't design it right. I'll wait till late spring or summer this time, instead of buying in the middle of the winter and having to wait for good riding weather. Though, they were only supposed to be making 1,500 DS 650's this year, so I wanted to get one, when I finally decided on the DS over the 400EX. That decision took all of two seconds after sitting on the DS, seeing it in person and test riding it in the parking lot :-)

They sold the entire shipment of four quads the first day they came in at the shop I bought mine from. They are keeping one in stock for about a week at a time now.

The thing with dirtbikes, they don't design them to last more than a couple of years, so why worry about a frame that won't last. They were more worried about getting a higher power to weight ratio so they could get the national championship back. So, they had to put an aluminum frame into production to use it on the track.

Kinda like those goofy windowed Monte Carlos in the 80's. Having that sloped window added 10mph to the top speed, to help compete with the Thunderbird. But, they needed to have 1,500? or more in production before they could use it on the track.

I won't deny that the Canondale has me interested, but, I wanted something this year.

I may trade the DS off next year for the Canondale if it's so great. Or, maybe Honda will step up to the plate with something better.

I don't really care what Yamahahahaha does. I have never had any luck with a Yamaahahahaa. They tend to be the most finicky piece of crap, so I don't even bother.

Laters,
CRT_Leech

 

Wow, Your dealership can hold a DS for a week? Here in AZ, when it first came out, if you didn't put your deposit down two to three months early you were out of luck. In fact I put my deposit down two months early and I was #8 of 6. Lucky for me one guy broke his leg and decided to hold off, and another guy backed out. I still feel sorry for him. Now they are getting shipments of eight to ten, and there is still a waiting list. I have just one question. If the DS sucks so much, like the 400exers are saying, then how come the dealers can't keep them in stock? I rode the 400ex for a long time, and it was a fun quad. It just didn't have quite enough for my riding style. I do have to admit that if Honda came out with a quad that could hang with the DS I would have a tough choice on my hands. Every bike, quad, and trike that I had before my DS was a Honda. I just swore to myself that I would buy the first four stroke quad over 500cc regardless of maker. Lucky for me it was the DS.

 

Yea, there are quite a few dealers in my area. I believe that there is about four to five dealers in a 20 mile radius that are selling the DS.

They are also selling the Hondas and other brands.

The closest dunes are 220 miles from this area, so people are more towards trail riding, though, there's not a lot of that anymore (tree huggers!).

The closest riding area is about 50+ miles. The closest decent riding area is about 75+ miles. Luckily, I am only about 10 hours from the Oregon dunes! Can't wait to get there. Same for the St. Anthony dunes, about the same distance.

It's taken about three solid months of selling them the day they came in before you would see one there for more than a day.

Another dealer got six on his first shipment. He's a little whole in the wall dealer and I don't understand how he got so many. The "big" dealer that I bought mine from was kinda pissed that he didn't get more than four on the first shipment.

Yea, I have been an avid Honda supporter since I have gotten into ATV's about 18 years ago. Before that, I was into Kawasaki's for dirt bikes. I had a Yamahawhocares a couple of times...no more.

Yea, if Honda comes out with something better, I will definately have to consider it. Yamawhatever, forget it it. I won't touch it no matter what the magazines say, their atv's are tempermental, outdated, underpowered and overwieght compared to Honda.

I WAS going to buy the 400EX. Then I checked out the DS, enough said.

Laters,
CRT_Leech