First i'm not going to get into the i'm right your wrong with you. As i said before works shocks are a very good shock, but Their not as Good as an Axis or a TCS. I never said they didn't have a variable dampining piston, this i know i also have a very good understanding on how they and the other shocks on the market work. Our tracks here in southeast alabama and Northwest florida are finishing a 6 race series and the #1 rider in it uses his stock shocks...when it comes to winning or not winning the riders has a lot more to do with it than the shocks he uses. He like me has riden everything but Axis and he is going to purchase the TCS....did you even ride the bike with the TCS on them? Although they proably wouldn't be set up for you if you weight much differently the guy that was on it. I also understand what you are saying about them not having rebound adj. and if they weren't zps shocks i think that then it would be a problem but i have yet to get a pogo or bouncing effect from the lack of it. The TCS do an excelent job of controling themselfs as they rebound. Also the fact that their a zps they only rebound to the height you have them adjusted. Next a TCS, PEP ZPS, Axis, and a stadium serise Works Steeler (like i think your are running) DO NOT HAVE SAG, that is the whole perpose of the ZERO PERLOAD SYSTEM. ZPS does away with spring preload which is sag and allows you to adjust your ride height to the height you like. If the guy on the Axis or TCS would have wanted to they both could of Dropped their bikes where they were sitting bottom out and over jumps (not bumps) they would have still had full travel. You could to since you have the Zps works. You'll also notice that your works have a triple rate spring this is what makes the works, pep, axis, and tcs different. Your works have 3 springs, the bottom one helps the shock with the really big bumps, the middle for the medium, and the top for the small and to set ride height. PEP ZPS use the same setup. except they use stiffer springs and they anodize the works bodies so the aluminum won't contaminate the shock oil. An Axis (and TCS since they are a very similar shock.) have 2 springs. The bottom supports the weight of the rider and bike, the top is a crush spring for ride height. If you'll notice i did not say the help the shock as i did with the works and pep. The springs on these shocks do nothing to help dampin the shock
Thanks to its shim stack (instead of a ball bearing and springs piston of the works and pep) there is not need to use the springs for incresed damping. Works and PEP are sort of ZPS for the fact they STILL rely on the springs to help the shock dampin hits. Axis and TCS are TRUE ZPS for the fact they DO NOT rely on the spring to dampin the shock.

Mr_400eX

 

Well, Mr 400ex I think that you should re-read the first sentence of your last post and then think about what you went on to say in the very next sentence. What I think yours and everyone else's problem is, is that you haven't seen my Works shocks before. They are not the Stadium Series shocks like you think. In fact I have never, out of all the bikes I have seen with Works suspension, have the type of action I have with mine. It is true that I haven't ridden a bike with the TCS shocks, but I would be willing to bet that if you rode my bike with my Works shocks you would think that they were TCS. Basing what you all have said about the TCS, mine are setup the same way. The ride height is set through the top spring and the crossover rings without affecting the travel of the shock or it's bottoming resistance. I have seen plenty of people with Works shocks and I have seen how they are setup as far as the way they sit and the way they ride. It seems to me that Works shocks, the way most people receive them, are setup way too stiff. The top spring rate is too stiff and there is no way to achieve zero preload. I know that my shocks are unique in that I spent a long time on the phone with Works explaining exactly what I wanted. They really didn't know what to do at first. I spent a long time talking with them trying to get them setup the correct way. I have achieved what I wanted, and I am simply recommending my setup for others. If I had Compression adjustable reservoirs on my shocks they would be the same as the TCS because that is the way they are setup. You can tell me I am wrong all you want, but I have seen both brands and I know what they can do. I am sure that you are basing what you know of Works Performance on the crappy standard build that most of their customers get. The problem is that people don't know what to ask for, and they are not even sure what they want. I, on the otherhand, am not that person; and that is why I got what I wanted. I do have a point to make about TCS and AXIS though. Don't you think that if the action of the shim stack dampening setup were so much better than the check ball setup used in PEP and Works that all the Professional riders would use them? After all, suspension is one the most(if not the most!) important parts of their bikes. I don't know what it is but PEP must be doing something right if that is what most of the top riders are using. Do you think that they would use inferior products at the expense of performance and a national title? I know that we are not professionals, but if you think about it that is what everyone tries to duplicate. I am not saying the TCS shocks are inferior to Works shocks either, I am sure that they work very well. But, you Mr 400ex, on the otherhand are attempting to insult my intelligence and riding ability because of my advocation of Works suspension.

 

Raychalp,

I'm not saying your a bad rider (your proably better than me) or trying to insult your inteligence, because you are very inteligent to how your shock is made. Works are great shocks (i have now said this in all 3 post), peps are great shocks because of the fact they use the works components. 100% of the pro riders use PEP or Axis (by far most use the pep). One of the main reason for this is baldwin motor sports is at every GNC event with their shock lab. They can rebuild a set of pep shocks in 30 min. and by doin this the riders don't have to carrie extra shocks in the case that one breaks. Several pro riders use the Axis with the roll lobo chassie (Travis Spader is one) because they acheave 13" of front travel, but they also have to carry several set of shocks incase they break one set. Once again Works are great shocks, they have a very good price tag, but for my money $650 i got a shock with the performance that is close to a shock that cost $1200 and i promiss there is a difference. Works is a great company and their shocks are great (if your order them from works). Find someone with Axis or TCS shocks and ride them (make sure they are set up right for you). Then you'll she what all the fuss about them is. They can take HUGE hits and landings yet stay smooth when riden at slow speeds and this is when set up for mx..they can set them up for any condition you want of couse. This is all thanks to the Shim Stack and that makes our shocks very different from each other. Most likey works is working on something new. They've always been inovative, but right now Axis is the inovative ones, cuzs their who introduced the shim stack piston to the atv world. TCS is a very good copy of axis, just like pep is a good copy of an works. Their all great shocks and let me change my 2nd sentence from my prevous post. Works are great shocks (if you get them from works), but they need to update their piston design. The shim stack is something very new to the atv industry, and when it becomes cost effected you'll see works adapt it to their shocks or pep do like tcs and invent their own version of it. Its been fun fussn with ya and i don't think your unintelligent or anything. Its your intelligents that has acctually caused me to keep this on going saga going. Just look at all this and you'll notice i can't spell worth a crap. So please don't take any of my post personaly cuz their not ment to be that way. I just know a lot of about the different shocks on the market. The only ones i haven't had any experiace on are Axis and i really want to ride on a set of them. I've rode on works, all three type of pep, olines, and the TCS and they impressed me the most for where i ride. The tracks down here are really rought. Its all hard pack and at my local track we have a huge stepup thats 85 feet (we can make about 80 feet of it) and a single to a table top that is 90 feet, and for all the peps and works to take those big leeps they have to be REALLY stiff and throughout the reast of the track the beat your to death. When i rode the TCS it was like a dream come true. smooth through the bumps with the ability to eat the big jumps.

Happy Atving,

Mr_400eX

 

I am just wondering about something. What type of damping system do most modern dirt bikes use? As most of you know most MX bikes have awesome suspension right off the showroom. Also Most of them only use a single rate spring.

 

Bikes also have a lot more ground clearance and sit up in the air higher as well! Think about it, Laeger uses a CR500 dirt bike linkage on his frames and that will give about 12.5" of travel. You also have to realize that a dirtbike swingarm is longer which automatically increases wheel travel. As far as the dampening, I am almost positive that bikes use shim stacks in the front and rear suspension. I am sure that there are some bikes with the check ball piston and some with the shim stacks. The shim stacks give the progressive feel, which eliminates the need for more than one spring. However, has anyone ever seen Travis Spaders front AXIS shocks? They have triple rate springs, if the dampening is so awesome with the shim stack, why the extra spring? I know that the shock is longer so my guess is that they are just using it to use up the space instead of using a longer spring. But, I have talked to TCS and Legacy and they both told me that the reason why they don't use triple rate springs, is because they feel that the standard length shocks aren't long enough. Hmmmmm.....

 

Hey Raychalp where can i find info about Legacy shocks? Also i was at Macon saturday and the custom axis on spaiders quad does have 3 springs, but the top two appear to be the same though i'm not positive. If thats the case i would say it is just to fill the space of the longer shock, cuz the Axis doesn't have the c-clip to set the ride height it uses only the crossovers for that. Also the craftsmanship in the Axis is nothing more than amazing! The fronts and the back are so much more beefyer than TCS, PEP, or Works. I see why they cost so much more than the rest now. I also got a chance to listen to Mark Baldwin explain how PEP ZPS work and it was very intereasting and i found out you can only change the ride height about 1.25" and keep the Zero preload anymore than that and the shock loses its zero proload ability. He said a ZPS shock is almost identical to a limited mass shock, just a slight valveing change to get the shock to float and different springs. I also asked about the wait on the ZPS and he said its about 4 months he also told me not to pay extra for the rebound adjustment. The wait on all of Laeger's stuff is also 4 months. I wanted to get arms around october so i guess i'll just have to order them in advance!

Mr_400eX

 

Legacy ATV shocks are identical to TCS. He also does an upgrade to Works or PEP shocks like TCS for the same price. In fact, all Legacy stuff is the same price as TCS. They advertise in the back of Dirtwheels and 4 Wheel Action. I can't believe that Baldwin said that ZPS and Limited MASS are the same except for the springs and valving. What else is there to change? I know that a Limited MASS rear shock can only be used with a non-link swingarm and the ZPS could be used on a either, why do you suppose that is? I really don't know. As far as the Laeger stuff goes, I am kind of mad about the $52.50 increase on the a-arms, swingarms and steering stems, and the $175 increase on the Pro Trax front ends and chassis'. Why the increase? I believe that he is trying to take advantage of the booming market and that seems kind of crooked, especially when nothing has been changed and the wait is probably longer than ever. I got my Laeger stuff last year when the prices were cheaper so I got lucky. I also got lucky because Nacs had the a-arms in stock, they had just received them the day that I called. Needless to say, I wasted no time in purchasing them. Before I had the Laeger arms, I bought a set of the JD Performance arms and I am very happy with those. Dave Herron, the guy that builds them is actually a welder for Laeger. I got those in 3 days. I hope that all the other aftermarket companies don't follow Laeger and Duncan and crank up all the prices! Fortunately, for me, I already bought every single possible aftermarket part at the cheaper prices so I don't have to worry much. I do however know that most riders are on limited budgets and these price increases are not going to help. You may want to try and find a used set of extended a-arms, because if you heard the wait for Laeger and PEP to be 4 months, you can add another 2 months to that for sure. I called Laeger last year in August and they told me that they were still filling orders from January, that is outrageous!! I know that places like Nacs, Baldwin and other dealers have standing orders for Laeger parts so you are better off checking with those places often. Most even have waiting lists to get on. As far as those AXIS shocks go, I really doubt the top 2 springs are identical. This would create a tremendous amount of chassis roll which would definitely be a problem. The only way they are the same is if the crossover rings within one of the top 2 springs totally prevent one of those springs from crushing out, which is highly unlikely and a big waste! I don't really know much about the AXIS setup, but I do know that those are the best looking shocks around!

 

do you know what kind of shocks have that when you get air the arm's (swing/A) drop to get a little more travle?

 

I went to Macon with our local track owner and we were looking at Travis Spaders Quad and he made the coment about the really thick crossovers on his axis shock, the middle spring had 2 very large crossovers that took up about 3/4 of the spring height while it was on the stand. The top was also had about 3/4 but had alot more smaller crossovers i guess for fine tuning the ride height. From what Mark told me about the ZPS PEPS they are very cool in how they work and to watch him and whane spend the whole day rebuilding shocks for people at the race if I were to run the gnc i would be tempted to get a set of zps. The only real thing he said about them that i didn't like is that you have only got about 1-1/4 of actual zps travel if you set your ride height to high it will act like a limited mass shock and if you drop more than the 1.25 the he said the shock start to do weird stuff as he called it. I'm not sure what kind of a-arms i may finally buy. I have a buraguard cycle swing arm and i'm very happy with it so i may get their a-arms, but i have awhile to think about that. I wonder if legacy or Tcs supply one or the other with parts?

87_250r,

Works, TCS, PEP, Legacy, Axis, will all increase your stock suspension travel, but they do it through the lengths of the main body and the shafts. My 400ex's stock a-arms can't drop hardly any farter from its stock position because the tie rods won't allow it. The swingarm on the other hand they can allow to drop slightly more.
hope this helps

Mr_400eX

2000 THE YEAR TO BLOW TONS OF MONEY ON YOUR QUAD

 

Any shocks should do what you are talking about, they shouldn't be rigid when you take off because if they are then they are way too stiff!! Basically, you are looking for the shocks that we have been talking about in this thread all along because each one accomplishes the "extension while jumping".