As far as support for the dale system it made by Optimum who carry all parts for it and handle all technical questions. They also make a system for some yamahas . I have called them and was able to talk directly to the designers about remapping for even more power and they were more than happy to stay on the phone after hours and set me up . The emailed me a great traction map for my speed and got my laptop reprogramed to work perfectly.
As far as Cannondale is concerned I dont believe it is a machine for the average Joe . It was designed to take the abuse of racing mx right out of the box and the engine was made super light and compact with 40 plus HP . The efi helped out with the ability to be detuned in certain areas to help with traction like when you need that hole shot it will keep the wheel spin down for traction and let the timing and fuel curves rise dramatically at higher rpms for top speed. There are many different ways to reprogram the fuel system to fit the track conditions and it can be done on the fly with the map selector kit. This maximun performance and not for the average trailrider.
Cannondale had several years to go before the their entire quad was made as bulletproof as say a honda which is why they were using their customers as a source of feedback and had customer supprt the likes of which we will never see again. If you had something fail on your engine they would give you a whole new one just to get it back and study it to make improvements. By the way thier entire service and parts manuals were made available for FREE to everyone online,even service bullitens and recalls. From my experience most of the dale problems were from quality control at the assembly plant which cause lots of problems down the line and led to most of their engine failures .
Back to the carb issue . Do a search on this site and you will just how much the average Joe knows about jetting or how a carb works,and how very few real answers are out their for them. Mos tof the answers turn out to be try another jet or they dont get answered at all. Ill bet you can find a heck of a lot more technicians out there who could fix a dale because its the same thing they work on day in day out an autos. I dont go near carbs on autos because they are just to complicated to diagnose. They just dont want talk to my scan tools.

 

dieselgeek,
When I said roll I didn't mean that EFI couldn't run upside down, I just used the term to describe the abuse an ATV receives as compared to an auto. I'm not sure where you came up with the direct injection for sleds. Nobody uses direct injection. Ski-doo has a system that mounts the injectors in the transfer ports but that doesn't fit the definition of direct injection right intot he combustion chamber. Arctic Cat EFI is the same as an auto, it uses throttle bodies. In any case it also doesn't have the injectors mounted to spray into the combustion chambers.

Coyotechaser,
The CPU and components on an outboard is not submerged in the water like with what happens when you drown out an ATV.

Wistech,
Like you said, the Cannondale wasn't set up for the average joe. The average joe doesn't need or require EFI. None of the recreational vehicle systems have proven to be as reliable as automobile systems. They also do not have the same level of support as autos so the comparison to fuelie Mustangs doesn't quite work. When automobile EFI first came out, modding them was a PITA. Now the aftermarket has caught up and the auto industry is standardized to EFI. The ATV, sled, dirk bike industry is in its infantcy with EFI and it will take a long while for the aftermarket to catch up. The other thing is that until they standardize to one system EFI people in the aftermarket are not going to jump in to make hop up parts.

 

well, I hate to be a dick and correct you - but the earliest FI on snowmobiles was Direct Injection, Ficht-style, in arctic cats and other Rotax engines... just like a diesel. DI is applicable to two strokes because it allows the exhaust port to be closed up before the compression stroke begins - dramatically reducing emissions. I'm not the history buff on DI, but I read it here.

As for outboards - actually, outboards are subject to THE WORST POSSIBLE CONDITIONS YOU CAN THROW AT AN ENGINE: they run and live in saltwater!!! Your argument about EFI being more complex than a carb is way, way off base!! Carbs are voodoo science compared to EFI, which may scare you at first - but I think you're a little more scared of EFI than necessary. I'd still rather "rejet" my ATV by plugging in a laptop and hitting a few keys - as opposed to taking the carb off the bike for trial and error. Give me EFI ANYDAY...

 

DG, the FICHT is a licenced name for a direct fuel injection that was patented by OMC. You are right that it nearly bankrupted them, they got it figured out too late. They sold the technology and outboard division to Bombardier, who now produces the Johnson and Evinrude motors, they sold almost all of their boat companies to Genmar. I think we will see it ona Bombardier before anything else, I could be wrong, but that is my guess. When I was in the boating business, my Bombardier rep told me that they were working on a 2 stroke injected sport quad. That was 2 years ago, so who knows. Artic cat could do it too, but I think we will see it on a 4 stroke. Too bad, I would love a DI 2 stroke, that would be fun!

 

I remember about ten years ago when turbos were just coming into the light duty diesel market and I was one of those that argued how bad the turbo was because of their reliability and drivabilty problems. I was just as wrong as rockrider is now.Today virtually every diesel engine out there is turbo equipt and are out performing gas engines for power and mileage. It was just a matter of time. When the government finnally cracks down on emmisions on off road vehicles that will be the final nail in the carburators coffin. I will be ready for them. Will you Joe?

 

DG,
Nothing in that article stated anything that the early FI systems were DI. It mentioned lean burn DI tech for autos in the late 80's and said this was the technology for two strokes but it didn't mention anywhere that the systems Arctic Cat, Polaris and Ski-doo (one year, 1993) used DI. Now Ski-Doo's SDI is the system I mentioned having the injectors in the transfer ports.

You need to do more research on the Polaris 1991 RXL 650, the '92 and later Indy 500 EFI's and the whole slew of EFI Cats that have been around since the early '90s starting with the EFI Wildcat. Doo had an EFI Formula Plus for '93 and it used a Bosch system.

The point is, none of these early or present systems (AC) is DI. They are all very similar to GM's style throttle body fuel injection.

Now as for marine EFI applications, just what part of the system is exposed to water? Outboards have covers over the power heads, and no part of the motor touches the water. Inboard motors are snug and dry inside the boats hull. You can't tell me that the CPU, sensors and wiring looms of an ATV or dirt bike EFI system are not exposed to the elements or will not get wet if and when you drown out in a water crossing. The CPU will be sealed for sure, but it is still exposed to the elements. As are all the connectors.

Its obvious that you guys love EFI and that is great. But I don't believe it belongs on a ATV because the conditions an ATV operates under are far more severe than anything in the automotive, marine or streetbike world. Nobody has said that EFI is more reliable than a carb when you 40-100 miles back in the bush and it decideds to quit. Which is exactly what a digital system does, it works or it doesn't. A carb fails slowly, giving you some warning. It is something you can most often repair in camp. I'd hate to see how much crap you guys would need to pack in to work on and repair an EFI system.

Like I was saying before, I can see how EFI would be cool for a quad that raced lap after lap on a track right next to civilization. Same for GNCC. Now you take a bunch of guys going hunting way off in the woods, do they need EFI? Do they want EFI? I'd venture to say the answer is no. KISS!

EFI has its place and it is not on ATV's, or sleds, or dirt bikes. Unfortunalty the EPA will probably dicate what is best for us anyway so there is no use debating it. I'll hold on to my basic toys and give the OEM's several years to get things figured out before I jump in.

 

Good Reply about the Hunters and such wanting a carbed design , I appericate the fact that you finally stated that ! Some of us Like the Efi design and we are racers and speed freeks . Some need OLDER tech's to get to and from . So we have the situation squared away . Dont knock new technology accept the fact thats it's here , I know way up in the Gateway it sure is Beautiful but so is it down here looking at real use of modern technology .

 

I work on ski-doo's all winter long and have for 15 years now. I've never heard of any direct injection on a production sled. Rockrider is correct about the semi direct injection, they had a model like that last winter. In their rotax pwc and jetboat engine though, DI has been used a few years now. It actually has a small piston type air compressor inside the cases that supplies it intake air, runs off the crankshaft I believe. My watercraft tech friend tells me tuned at the same power as the carb models, it gets 75% (I think he said) better gas mileage. I have experience with both EFI and carbs, and as far as troubleshooting a problem, 98% of the problems you see on either one are easy (of course there's always that occasional elusive one). I guess if it comes to a bank of carbs, I would rather have the self diagnostics tell me an O2 sensor is bad, and spend 30 minutes replacing it, than have to spend 4 - 5 hours pulling the carbs off to clean a clogged slow jet, actually either way is fine. But the single carbs on most of these atv's are SO easy to remove, and simple to fix, I think it would be easier and cheaper to deal with them for most "Joe Average ATVer " out there. On an EFI, if it actually comes down to probing connectors, it can be difficult and time consuming. Most of the connector pins I work on are 1mm, and you can't just jam a 1.5 mm VOM probe down there, or you are just adding to your problems. In terms of reliability and performance tho, EFI is hard to beat.

 

And the Saga continues.

EFI on Boats

I used to sell WellCraft you know the makes of the SCARAB off shore Race boats. Unless the whole electrial loom is water PROOFED it will fail. Salt spray gets in to the Cowl by the way. All electronics are encapulated in epoxy to protect them from Spray and Vapor. This things running at 6000 RPM jumping 3-6 foot waves take the same abuse if not more than an ATV putting around.

EFI on Quads

I have a Cannondale and have not had one problem related to the EFI. It sits for weeks without a charge and starts after I get her primed. If you get water in a quads intake EFI or Carb you will have a problem.

Rockrider,

What do you think about electric start over Kick start???
You have the correct quad for you. You are an Average Joe. That's not a bad thing, it just means you don't want the little extra that some of us want.

Smitty

 

One more point, if you think that when Honda, Yamaha and others come out with an EFI model, they are going to have as cool an interface as (it sounds) Cannondale did, you are going to be disappointed. The closest I have seen is Bombardier's interface for DI engines. It can do many cool things, but, you need a laptop, a rather expensive component that goes between the laptop and the machine, and a program that's licensed only to dealers and is not intended to get into the hands of john q. public. Matter of fact, the dealer gets in BIG trouble if they are found to be sharing the technology with the public. The aftermarket ECU stuff people put on street motorcycles that I've seen (when they pipe them for example), is crude and expensive. If you pipe an EFI bike, they sometimes run like crap until you add these devices, then they get their driveability back, that is they don't pop and backfire and hesitate, and the customer is happy and they think their bike is really fast now. Until they get walked on by a bone stocker, LOL. I'm not saying this is always the case, but I've seen it more than once.