Why bashing the 450r?????????
#11
09-15-2003, 07:04 PM
Why bashing the 450r?????????
Originally posted by: 1986atc250r
Too many people with WAY too high expectations...
Aluminum frame - why?
It won't improve weight, the aluminum frame would have to be constructed heavier and likely still wouldn't hold up over the long term as well as steel. Not to mention the ease of fixing and/or strengthening a steel frame as opposed to aluminum.
EFI would bring nothing but complexity, weight, and more points of failure to the quad. EFI requires a fuel pump, high pressure lines, a Map sensor, an ECU, a throttle body, fuel injectors, idle air control motor, fuel pressure regulator, etc in order to operate. EFI also makes the modification process more difficult. If you modify much, you have to replace expensive fuel injectors with higher flow units -- modify too much and you have to replace the fuel pump.
EFI does not produce more power than a carb.
Weight & kickstart -- we'll have to wait for this. I know, the YFZ and Honda both state 350lbs... Lets not forget that manufacturers have a tendency to have optimistic scales to varying degrees.
I haven't weighed a YFZ myself, but the one person I've heard from that has had one on the scales says 385lbs dry. I have a hard time believing that the TRX won't weigh less in the real world.
Too many people with WAY too high expectations...
Aluminum frame - why?
It won't improve weight, the aluminum frame would have to be constructed heavier and likely still wouldn't hold up over the long term as well as steel. Not to mention the ease of fixing and/or strengthening a steel frame as opposed to aluminum.
EFI would bring nothing but complexity, weight, and more points of failure to the quad. EFI requires a fuel pump, high pressure lines, a Map sensor, an ECU, a throttle body, fuel injectors, idle air control motor, fuel pressure regulator, etc in order to operate. EFI also makes the modification process more difficult. If you modify much, you have to replace expensive fuel injectors with higher flow units -- modify too much and you have to replace the fuel pump.
EFI does not produce more power than a carb.
Weight & kickstart -- we'll have to wait for this. I know, the YFZ and Honda both state 350lbs... Lets not forget that manufacturers have a tendency to have optimistic scales to varying degrees.
I haven't weighed a YFZ myself, but the one person I've heard from that has had one on the scales says 385lbs dry. I have a hard time believing that the TRX won't weigh less in the real world.
EFI would bring more benefits to the table than weight. Running higher compression and complex fuel maps, power can be created in areas of the powerband that a carb cant AND be more reliable. variable valve timing can also be another benefit of EFI. also, efficiency would be increased which would include more power with the same clean air regulations. i think the gains are little when compared to adding nitrous or bigger cams, but the overall system is better than what is out today. $ to thebenefit of EFI, isnt realistic yet.
#12
09-15-2003, 07:04 PM
Why bashing the 450r?????????
??? - a big bore 400EX? You really need to do some homework.
15-17" of travel would be bad for a number of reasons...
IRS?? Not sure that would be a good thing either unless you want a cushy ride on a casual trailrider. If you were expecting IRS, your expectations were definitely way out of line with reality.
What's wrong with a 4 valve head? The number of valved doesn't dictate power output. The CRF engine is state of the art anyone that thinks differently is sadly mistaken. There are only few minor differences between this engine and what's on the bike... Better yet, this engine has been upgraded to handle the stresses of the quad. If you are still not happy with power output, it will be very easy to upgrade it to complete CRF spec.
Had they announced a "650EX" it would likely put out very similar power numbers to the CRF engine - only it would have been much heavier and ineligable to participate in many racing classes in the GNC ATV series. There would be a lot of people moaning and groaning had they announced a 650EX.
15-17" of travel would be bad for a number of reasons...
IRS?? Not sure that would be a good thing either unless you want a cushy ride on a casual trailrider. If you were expecting IRS, your expectations were definitely way out of line with reality.
What's wrong with a 4 valve head? The number of valved doesn't dictate power output. The CRF engine is state of the art anyone that thinks differently is sadly mistaken. There are only few minor differences between this engine and what's on the bike... Better yet, this engine has been upgraded to handle the stresses of the quad. If you are still not happy with power output, it will be very easy to upgrade it to complete CRF spec.
Had they announced a "650EX" it would likely put out very similar power numbers to the CRF engine - only it would have been much heavier and ineligable to participate in many racing classes in the GNC ATV series. There would be a lot of people moaning and groaning had they announced a 650EX.
#13
09-15-2003, 07:05 PM
Why bashing the 450r?????????
you might be right about the frame. If they had used alluminum then it would have undoubtedly cost more. two other things that bother me a bit are the fact that the seat height is a little higher than the yfz (and 400ex for that matter) and the suspension doesn't have an impressive amount of travel, but that doesn't have to mean that it won't handle as well or vetter than either of those bikes, we'll just have to wait and see. As I said before, even though I can sit here and nit pick at it, I'm still planning on buying one next season and I'm sure it won't let me down.
#14
09-15-2003, 08:21 PM
Why bashing the 450r?????????
I think the 450r is perfect. who needs electric start? electric start is for ****** just like yamaha. Anybody who thinks the need electric start should be riding a warrior or a raptor (something slow). Its just uneeded extra wieght. The only thing honda could change is the suspension but its fine how it is because if they put nicer stuff on it, it would just cost more.
#15
09-15-2003, 08:27 PM
Why bashing the 450r?????????
Originally posted by: Heapster
I'm really let down..........what would I want? Something on par with state of the art technology on their dirt bikes and street bikes...........
Look at the prices we're paying.......now go compare what that buys you elsewhere in dirt bikes or street bikes.
Why can't they offer long travel suspension with 15-17" of travel.........maybe 4 wheel independant suspension. Something more high tech and next generation instead of a rebadged new plastic big bore 400ex........heck, even the head is still a 4 valve. Now if they would of announced a 650ex, with gull wing long travel a-arms, dual rate shocks, and braided steel brake lines from the factory............THEN I'd be impressed.......
Yawn.........not impressed at all just by the specs, we'll have to see how they do first hand and in person.
I'm really let down..........what would I want? Something on par with state of the art technology on their dirt bikes and street bikes...........
Look at the prices we're paying.......now go compare what that buys you elsewhere in dirt bikes or street bikes.
Why can't they offer long travel suspension with 15-17" of travel.........maybe 4 wheel independant suspension. Something more high tech and next generation instead of a rebadged new plastic big bore 400ex........heck, even the head is still a 4 valve. Now if they would of announced a 650ex, with gull wing long travel a-arms, dual rate shocks, and braided steel brake lines from the factory............THEN I'd be impressed.......
Yawn.........not impressed at all just by the specs, we'll have to see how they do first hand and in person.
Independent rear suspension is the dumbest thing i have ever heard for a sport quad. Not only would it add a ton off extra wieght but it would corner really bad. Not a good thing at all for a sport quad. If you want independent rear suspension get a 4x4. You think the 450r sucks but look at your predator a 450r will kill that thing.
#17
09-15-2003, 09:57 PM
Why bashing the 450r?????????
Originally posted by: 1986atc250r
Too many people with WAY too high expectations...
Aluminum frame - why?
It won't improve weight, the aluminum frame would have to be constructed heavier and likely still wouldn't hold up over the long term as well as steel. Not to mention the ease of fixing and/or strengthening a steel frame as opposed to aluminum.
EFI would bring nothing but complexity, weight, and more points of failure to the quad. EFI requires a fuel pump, high pressure lines, a Map sensor, an ECU, a throttle body, fuel injectors, idle air control motor, fuel pressure regulator, etc in order to operate. EFI also makes the modification process more difficult. If you modify much, you have to replace expensive fuel injectors with higher flow units -- modify too much and you have to replace the fuel pump.
EFI does not produce more power than a carb.
Weight & kickstart -- we'll have to wait for this. I know, the YFZ and Honda both state 350lbs... Lets not forget that manufacturers have a tendency to have optimistic scales to varying degrees.
I haven't weighed a YFZ myself, but the one person I've heard from that has had one on the scales says 385lbs dry. I have a hard time believing that the TRX won't weigh less in the real world.
Too many people with WAY too high expectations...
Aluminum frame - why?
It won't improve weight, the aluminum frame would have to be constructed heavier and likely still wouldn't hold up over the long term as well as steel. Not to mention the ease of fixing and/or strengthening a steel frame as opposed to aluminum.
EFI would bring nothing but complexity, weight, and more points of failure to the quad. EFI requires a fuel pump, high pressure lines, a Map sensor, an ECU, a throttle body, fuel injectors, idle air control motor, fuel pressure regulator, etc in order to operate. EFI also makes the modification process more difficult. If you modify much, you have to replace expensive fuel injectors with higher flow units -- modify too much and you have to replace the fuel pump.
EFI does not produce more power than a carb.
Weight & kickstart -- we'll have to wait for this. I know, the YFZ and Honda both state 350lbs... Lets not forget that manufacturers have a tendency to have optimistic scales to varying degrees.
I haven't weighed a YFZ myself, but the one person I've heard from that has had one on the scales says 385lbs dry. I have a hard time believing that the TRX won't weigh less in the real world.
the catch is when you go to recalibrate its more expensive than a a jet kit. you also don't have all the float bowl probs when jumping either...It woulda been nice to have an injected bike but I believe that is further down the road in the 450r's developement...
#18
09-16-2003, 02:09 AM
Why bashing the 450r?????????
No need to educate me on EFI - I've written recalibration software. I've converted carbed vechicles to EFI and have hacked & altered OEM code, built my own interface cables, burned my own chips, etc - I know my way around fairly well [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img].
If you go to changing fuel requirements very much and you WILL have to change injectors. There is a small operating window you've got as far as useable pulse width, stay within those flow parameters and you're good. Build any real power and things got to change. Too large an injector, your pulse width gets too short & your system will never idle properly. Too small an injector and duty cycle reaches 100% and you melt pistons under heavy engine load and high RPM.
It's been shown time and time again that EFI will not increase HP over a properly tuned carburetor. EFI will more accurately meter fuel at part throttle to produce improved driveability & emissions.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of EFI - I just don't believe that with current technology, it's the way to go on a quad. A sportbike? Yes --- quad, no. Quads operate under very different conditions than a sportbike. Quads also don't have to meet emisssions requirements, something EFI is very good at. On a sportbike, EFI may actually be more economical than a carb, since in many cases you're dealing with four expensive carburetors.
IRS... Desert racing is about the only application for IRS on a sport quad, which is why it's practically the only place you'll see it in use. It's also the only application where travel greater than 12" is useful instead of harmful, again, which is why it's typically the only place you'll see it's use.
Mudstud - the TRX has "piggys", unlike the YFZ they're just hidden from harm and view.
Quote: Alluminum frame would make it lighter. i dont know where you're getting your stats on how fragile alluminum is but the ratio of strength wouldnt make it heavier.
There's not much weight to be saved in a frame... A standard steel frame is pretty lightweight. You try to save much and you have a fragile frame. Ever wonder why C-dale made there frames so heavy? Ever wonder why Cannondale's weigh every bit as much as steel frame quads?
To attain the strength you're after you will be VERY close to the same weight as stock - what have you then gained? Price, nothing more. Also, consider the environment we operate these ATVs in. Years of pounding in the rocks will fatigue aluminum. I can guarantee you that if my 400EX XC racer's frame were constructed of aluminum, I would have serious issues with fatigue from rock hits alone. Our ATVs operate in a much different environment and require much different construction than say a Sportbike, or a mountain bike. You have to consider direct impact damage as well as other stresses the frame will see that are not typical to other chassis types.
Quote: Welded frames scare me!
You must live in fear every second, every automotive frame manufactured (motorcycle or car) is welded.
So let's get this straight... You guys wanted:
IRS
15-17" of travel with a lower seat height than a YFZ
Aluminum chassis, constructed strong, light, and in multiple, easy to replace sections
EFI
Factory Long travel suspension
Electric with kick start backup
More advanced head design than one of the most powerful Motocrossers in the world.
650cc
Dual rate shocks - heck why not go all out and go for triple rate with ZPS
Braided stainless steel lines
I suppose you also wanted a price tag about the same as a 400EX. Did we maybe have our expectations a touch high? What did everyone complain about when Cannondale hit many of these issues?
If you go to changing fuel requirements very much and you WILL have to change injectors. There is a small operating window you've got as far as useable pulse width, stay within those flow parameters and you're good. Build any real power and things got to change. Too large an injector, your pulse width gets too short & your system will never idle properly. Too small an injector and duty cycle reaches 100% and you melt pistons under heavy engine load and high RPM.
It's been shown time and time again that EFI will not increase HP over a properly tuned carburetor. EFI will more accurately meter fuel at part throttle to produce improved driveability & emissions.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of EFI - I just don't believe that with current technology, it's the way to go on a quad. A sportbike? Yes --- quad, no. Quads operate under very different conditions than a sportbike. Quads also don't have to meet emisssions requirements, something EFI is very good at. On a sportbike, EFI may actually be more economical than a carb, since in many cases you're dealing with four expensive carburetors.
IRS... Desert racing is about the only application for IRS on a sport quad, which is why it's practically the only place you'll see it in use. It's also the only application where travel greater than 12" is useful instead of harmful, again, which is why it's typically the only place you'll see it's use.
Mudstud - the TRX has "piggys", unlike the YFZ they're just hidden from harm and view.
Quote: Alluminum frame would make it lighter. i dont know where you're getting your stats on how fragile alluminum is but the ratio of strength wouldnt make it heavier.
There's not much weight to be saved in a frame... A standard steel frame is pretty lightweight. You try to save much and you have a fragile frame. Ever wonder why C-dale made there frames so heavy? Ever wonder why Cannondale's weigh every bit as much as steel frame quads?
To attain the strength you're after you will be VERY close to the same weight as stock - what have you then gained? Price, nothing more. Also, consider the environment we operate these ATVs in. Years of pounding in the rocks will fatigue aluminum. I can guarantee you that if my 400EX XC racer's frame were constructed of aluminum, I would have serious issues with fatigue from rock hits alone. Our ATVs operate in a much different environment and require much different construction than say a Sportbike, or a mountain bike. You have to consider direct impact damage as well as other stresses the frame will see that are not typical to other chassis types.
Quote: Welded frames scare me!
You must live in fear every second, every automotive frame manufactured (motorcycle or car) is welded.
So let's get this straight... You guys wanted:
IRS
15-17" of travel with a lower seat height than a YFZ
Aluminum chassis, constructed strong, light, and in multiple, easy to replace sections
EFI
Factory Long travel suspension
Electric with kick start backup
More advanced head design than one of the most powerful Motocrossers in the world.
650cc
Dual rate shocks - heck why not go all out and go for triple rate with ZPS
Braided stainless steel lines
I suppose you also wanted a price tag about the same as a 400EX. Did we maybe have our expectations a touch high? What did everyone complain about when Cannondale hit many of these issues?
#19
09-16-2003, 12:34 PM
Why bashing the 450r?????????
atc250r You just hit every point right on the head and then drove it through. I totally agree with you on the aluminum frame. My dad owns a custom fabrication shop in which i work at. The only thing most people know about is aluminum is that its light. But it not as durable. It also comes under a lot of stress when heated. Just a small rock could put a dent in aluminum tubing which after that happens is when problems start. and cost would be outragious aluminum costs 3-4 times more than carbon steel. If i had an aluminum frame i wouldn't have too much trouble with cause i have means neccisary to fix it if it were damaged, but most people don't, hell i could even build an aluminum frame for mine but if i were to make a frame for my bike that wouldn't be the route i would go.
#20
09-16-2003, 12:42 PM
Why bashing the 450r?????????
Originally posted by: 1986atc250r
It's been shown time and time again that EFI will not increase HP over a properly tuned carburetor. EFI will more accurately meter fuel at part throttle to produce improved driveability & emissions.
It's been shown time and time again that EFI will not increase HP over a properly tuned carburetor. EFI will more accurately meter fuel at part throttle to produce improved driveability & emissions.