I agree with 94dgblaster...More power is not my problem, it's that the manufaturers don't put out the motors to the fullest of their potential. I see no need to detune there motors, as they always do (400ex, Raptor...). It seems like they make them big (650's, 660, Polaris' rumored 700twin) because, they want to "sound" the fastest, when in all reality, a 400 class bike could easily make equal power (just look at a yz426f, or a CR450f). People need to face it, bigger isn't always better.

 

I agree with 94DGBlaster, Plunker and 250rampage, though most of you all have very good points. First off, I know NOTHING of sport quads, as a raptor or 400ex simply will not tow the huge logs I need to pull through thick brush, stumps, rocks, deep rutted muddy terrain-that is, without a larger 4x4 towing it! I don't think 94DGBlaster means that the new quads are totally "underpowered" in that same aspect, though probably something more like they are underpowered to their full potential. Most of those engines were detuned from the factory-hell, look at the Kaw 650 utility (SPORT/utility)-there have been several articles relating to how bad they had to de-tune that thing just to make it available to the public. Is it underpowered? Hell no! But, is it making all the useable power that it could? NO-fix whatever they did to de-tune it, put it back to their original specs before large scale production, then talk about power-compared to that engine, yes, it is underpowered. Like I said, while I don't know anything about sport quads, I've heard much of the same things about the raptor and even the 400ex-though it sounds more like Honda just won't build a real high performance engine for more safety/liability reasons??? Sounds kind of like they're more conservative than the rest of the manufacturers-though, only time will tell-I'm sure they'll come up with some new "big bore" to compete with the rest, otherwise they'd loose part of their market share, and I don't think they'd let that happen anytime soon.

As for Plunker, I completely agree. Surprisingly enough, there are a lot of us woods guys, or trail guys who NEVER see any kind of sand, dunes, wide open spaces. We don't jump our quads, or race around at 70+ mph-hell, in all reality, we're lucky to hit 30! Our quads may be able to do upwards of 50mph, maybe low 60's for the SP's and the 600 Griz, but in the woods when slow, technical 4x4 counts, you rarely ever get any kind of speed out of a quad. Too much speed in those conditions could easily kill you. Size, like power is not always a good thing, bigger is not always better. With the new 650 or 660 quad, people have a mind set that they need the biggest, baddest thing out there. Consequently, you'll now have first time buyers go out and buy that new 650 or 660 just because it's the biggest available, so theoretically, it should be "the best". Now, get them out on the trails with the lack of experience they have, on a beast with that much power, you're asking for trouble-the machine has far more power than they know what to do with, and they could easily get themselves hurt or killed in the conditions I ride in every day. Hell, I watched a girl riding a Ruby up a mildly steep hill give it too much gas when she shouldn't have, flipped the thing right over backwards, damn near squished the hell out of her. Her being around 110 lbs., she's no match for that large a machine coming over on top of her. Now, had she, or even a larger heavier built guy been on that new Griz, or the Kaw and flipped like that because of all that power, they wheelie so easy-could easily have spelled disaster.

In the woods, my type of riding just doesn't see the need for these large displacement quads. My AC 500 tows everything I need to tow, climbs anything I have the guts to try, does everything I ask of it-even while powering huge 27" magnum 'Claws. Yet, a lot of people consider this to be an "underpowered" quad. Why? Because it isn't the fastest out there-mid 50's if you're lucky. Underpowered? Hell NO! This thing will damn near tow a house of it's foundation-if it's got traction, it will pull it. Why then do I need a new 650 or 660cc machine, when my little 500 does everything I need to do. And, despite popular belief, more power will not always get you to the top of that hill better or faster. Too much power to the ground, driving the tires faster than they should be turning will easily lead to out of control conditions, climbing a hill, hitting a tree root and flipping because you're going too damn fast in the first place.

Basically, why do we NEED these larger cc quads? I don't think we do actually NEED them. But, as Americans, we always need "more" of everything, so somebody will build something with more power, more cc's, etc. While it's not always practical, and not always a good thing, it will always be there. Just part of competitive nature I guess. I think both the Kaw and the Griz made huge strides in the atv world, as what is now "more" to judge buy and better for the next manufacturer to compete against, though instead of building the engines bigger, they should refine what they already have, make them better-not bigger.

Anyway, enough of my sermon. It's not WHAT we ride that's important, it's THAT we ride, and for that, we all have to be thankful.

Best of Luck,

Mike

 

I like having more power. I sure don't use it all, really don't even want to. I want to live to be old and remember all the good times I had when I am sitting there in the rocker. To be honest, I hope when I am in my 80's that I can still ride the big machines that they will produce in the future and I think its only going to get better and safer too. Its with the bigger machice comes all that (TORQUE/pull on the seat of your pants) its a plus.

 

all new big quads are detuned. Actually i'm going to risk it and say all quads are detuned.

Nothing runs to its potential.

Take a stock 300ex, 17hp, put a grand in it. and boom you have 35hp.

Take a stock 400ex, 26hp, put a grand in it(full race 440) and you have 55hp.

Take a stock 300ex, put 300 in it(pipe filter rejet) you get 21hp

Take a stock 400ex, put 300 in it(pipe filter rejet) you get 28hp

Quads aren't running to what they can.

A raptor, guys are dumping a lot of money into them to get em to run like they should. In stock form they are weak, i'm sorry raptor guys, i've rode em, i've rode with them when my 300 was stock, they don't run like a 660 should!

to my orginal statment, they need to refine the quads already made before making them bigger.

Woohoo! lets take a frame that was designed to hold 26HP(a stock 400ex) and stuff a motor in it that puts out 45, with the same shocks ect. WHat do you get an ATV that on the trade a 400ex will beat. but stuff, a 2k in shocks, +2 A-arms, +4 axle, and then you have something. Its not about how fast we can go its about how much useable power we have.

As for raptors, and DS650s having more power than a 400ex, then why are the 400ex beating them on the track/trails and drag races. Come on!! that thing should leave a dinky 400ex everywhere.

From 90% of the raptor DS650 owners what do you hear about handling. nothing good!

 

Like I've said before, if someone built an ATV around a V-6 engine there would people in line to buy it. It's just like how some people view the the speed limit. You could make it 100mph and there would be those who would drive like hell to make 105.

 

All I can say is they must have had a official third degree black belt Yamaha Technician who chopped the engine on the line when they started and tuned mine. In stock form mine is not weak. When I am flying up that hill in second gear if this is weak I need more of it. Its mostly rider skill who determines who wins. You could put an amateur on a Raptor, an amateur on a 400ex, a pro on a 250ex and I know who I am going to put my money on. The pro will win by a wide margin and its not because the 400ex and raptor are weak. This is showing my age but in 1971 I had a Honda SL100. There was a place by are home called sandhill. I was 15 at the time and I would go over and go round and round and round and the track and me became one. Then on the weekends the older Gentlemen would come over. They were on there Big Kawasaki's 350, There Yamaha Enduro 360's, and there Pentons, hodaka's etc. I could beat a lot of those bigger machines simply because I practiced so much and I knew every angle of that track. I only weighed 130 pounds at that time and that helped too. There was only one person I couldn't beat and he had the new and improved 21 inch front wheel SL 125 honda and yes he practiced during the week too.

 

I guess we can all agree on one thing. That the manufacturers detune the motors in the quads. No doubt about that. It all goes back to those three-wheelers that caused so many lawsuits way back when. Liability.

 

They are detuned so the average person like me who uses but does not abuse their machine has a high degree of reliability and the service life of the engine is prolonged.

 

I kind of agree with all of you.

The bigger the engine the easier (more reliably) it can produce power. This is a definate plus!

A smaller well tuned engine can usually make near comparable power but its at the cost of reliability. I'll use my '88 Mustang as an example, my engine is making about 250hp at the wheels right now on a .030 overbore, cam, light port and polish and full exhaust (a few other goodies but you get the idea). A friend of mine has a '71 351 Windsor in his '85 (same car, different plastic). Hes making about 350 hp at the rears in with basically the same mods. If it were making the same 250 hp as mine it wouldnt need much at all, he'd have better gas mileage and better reliability.

As far as the damage being done to the trails, thats definately not good. On the other hand I guarantee you that I can cause just as much damage on my stock Mojave as a Raptor can.

I prefer the larger engine, there usually arent any downfalls other than the fuel mileage. Theres a saying "theres no replacement for displacement." There is no way to make a smaller engine more powerful and reliable than a larger engine, period! Mod for mod the larger engine will stomp you.

If people are buying them than we need bigger engines. When a manufacture produces a larger more powerful engine they make a chassis that will match it (Hondas got to be the master of this). In stock trim the 400EX and Raptor are well suspended. With mods you start exceed there original intent, this is usually easily fixed with after market suspension.

I'd be upset if I purchased a motorized vehicle (atv, car, motorcycle, what ever) and there was no more potential from the factory setup I would be pissed. Do you really want something you cant mod? Not me.

 

To me, this talk of ATV's becoming too powerful and fast is ridiculous. You can ride any ATV too fast for certain conditions or situations. You have to walk before you can run (thats why they don't want kids riding them, but the saying is true for beginners of any age). They make most cars with engines that can go way over the speed limit but that doesn't entitle you to do so, because its dangerous---so why do they make them? Some people buy big engines to have power on big hills and to be able to get up to speed quickly when merging, towing, etc. (which is actually safer in some situations) and some people just like power. Why should it be any different with ATV's? If you tow heavy loads, power is great, but if you also like to ride fast, it is nice to have speed in the same quad. It is sometimes dangerous for someone to buy a high powered sports car when they are just learning to drive, but it happens. I like to have choices, but we still have to be responsible. We can't be blaming manufacturers if we misuse their products. Like cars and motorcycles, you should start off conservatively with ATV's and move up to higher speed and power only when competent---but if there is nothing to move up to, you may get bored and buy something else. The more choices the better as far as I'm concerned.