I can't even imagine what tractors have to do with ATVs????

The point of this thread was why the Rincon lost the shootout right???

 

Below is the explanation of how a limited slip axle works from the web site how stuff works. Unlike some I actually can back up what I say with references, I don’t spout rumors or what people have told me, if I can’t prove it I don’t say it. As you will se below a limited slip axle works as I described in an earlier post.

This type of LSD has all of the same components as an open differential, but it adds a spring pack and a set of clutches. Some of these have a cone clutch that is just like the synchronizers in a manual transmission.

The spring pack pushes the side gears against the clutches, which are attached to the cage. Both side gears spin with the cage when both wheels are moving at the same speed, and the clutches aren't really needed -- the only time the clutches step in is when something happens to make one wheel spin faster than the other, as in a turn. The clutches fight this behavior, wanting both wheels to go the same speed. If one wheel wants to spin faster than the other, it must first overpower the clutch. The stiffness of the springs combined with the friction of the clutch determine how much torque it takes to overpower it.

Getting back to the situation in which one drive wheel is on the ice and the other one has good traction: With this limited slip differential, even though the wheel on the ice is not able to transmit much torque to the ground, the other wheel will still get the torque it needs to move. The torque supplied to the wheel not on the ice is equal to the amount of torque it takes to overpower the clutches. The result is that you can move forward, although still not with the full power of your car.

 

Are you kidding?!
Anything you have said previously, I will completely void from my recollection... you have obviously never, ever, ridden a prairie... or you would be too ashamed to be writing this garbage.

 

Wanabe, OK, you got me...Although I clearly did NOT mention that the JD locks the FRONT (I just said they have a locking differential) the way I worded it, it sounds like that is what I meant, so I'll give you that one. Front wheel assist tractors have equal weight on both front wheels all the time (until you hit the travel stop) unlike an ATV, where going through a creek at an angle can drastically lighten one wheel in relation to another, making a locker less advantageous. Anyway, I'll give you that one...

Never saw a payloader without a steering wheel, but lots of skid steers with joysticks. Doesn't mean they don't have one, I just never saw one that way.

The drum brakes used on these machines, as well as big trucks are AIR brakes, and are of such a different design (with what is on an ATV), I don't think they can even be compared. Compared to drum brakes, disks are more fade resistant, easier to service, and provide more stopping power for their weight.

The patent I referred to about the belt drive in the Polaris was using a belt drive CVT tranny in an ATV. Unless Mercedes built an ATV in the mid-1800s, I will still stand by this statement: Polaris was the first to patent and use a belt drive CVT in an ATV. As for any royalties being paid, I am pretty sure I said it was all rumor. If I had to place my bets, NovaKaw650's response seems to make the best sense.

I still say what you are describing is a locker, though. With a limited slip differential, it merely limits the slip. If you have 3 wheels on ice, and one front on pavement, the 3 on ice will spin, and the other will just sit there, and the more miles on the machine, the greater tendancy to do that. Yes, it supplies SOME torque to the front wheel that isn't turning, but it will only transfer the energy required to overcome the force the springs place on the clutches. Most designs of LSDs also use the side load from the spider gears to put additional pressure on these clutches, which is why in some instances applying the front brake will cause the front wheels to turn together. (bet you didn't think I new that)

As to the original intent of the thread...
I personally don't think the Rincon deserves to be called the 'ultimate' 4x4. The competition is just too stiff. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think that it is a bad machine at all, is just isn't the 'ultimate'.
Lack of engine braking, drum brakes, and no front locker don't make it bad, it is just with the competition being so stiff, that if you don't have it, you are no longer #1. In my opinion, Honda didn't intend it to be the be-all, get-all of ATVing. It is a fun, low maintanence, smooth riding ATV that does most anything pretty good, but isn't the 'ultimate' at any one thing.

 

Good reply Farmr123. I agree if you have a wheel in the air and one firmly on the ground, and both wheels are spinning the same speed, then the differential is locked. One early type of limited slip differential you are referring to where there is extra pressure on the clutches from the spider gears (pinion gears) is from the spider gear shafts having wedge shaped sides at the ends and running in notches in the two halves of the differential case. (Dodge called it a nonslip differential) With even loads on both wheels, the spider gear shafts slid up the notches in the differential case forcing the spider gears outward which locked the axle shafts to the differential case by putting pressure on the clutch packs, so the differential was locked. In a turn the pressure was lessened on the inner wheel which let the shaft back down the ramp and allowed the tension on the clutch pack to lessen, letting that wheel slip slightly allowing the outer wheel to turn faster. If one wheel was on ice, that wheel would lose traction which allowed the pressure on that clutch pack to lessen and the power to transfer to the wheel with more traction. There are quite a few designs.
The description that wannabe gave of a limited slip differential was a direct quote from "Howstuffworks". This is a super basic description of a car's coil spring loaded LSD where the springs can be quite stiff, making the LS differential very effective. With an ATV, they can't make the springs too stiff or the steering would be too difficult. My /97 Kawasaki Prairie's LSD action is almost non existant. When it is adjusted properly the service manual says it should take 130 inch pounds to turn a wheel when the other one is held. Thats under 11 foot pounds! This differential uses spring washers (Bellville springs) in the clutch packs , not coil springs between the side gears, and they force the side gears tight against the spider gears, not the side gears against the clutch packs (altough the result is similar). Anyway, like Farmr123 said, with some clutch wear, the pressure of the springs (which was light to begin with) diminishes and the LSD effect is poor. My machine might just as well be 3-wheel-drive. It isn't much better. I like the new Prairie's design where the more of a locker you want, the farther you pull the lever. Simple! It works at any speed too. I sure could use it in the snow!
I haven't seen a description of the Honda LSD. I'd like to see how it is built. I have heard that the "Visco lock" differential on the Bombardier Traxter is a very good design and would like to see it too.

 

NovaKaw650,

Thank you for blessing us with your "know it all" information. It's to bad you couldn't have gotten to Honda sooner to save them from their dismal future.

I still get a kick out of some of you owners of other makes coming on a Honda thread and judging Hondas models in an effort to make yours seem better. Nice try, but some of us see right through your crap.

 

jscyoung:

Not too sure what the innards of the Honda front diff looks like, never had one apart. I DO know that after a bunch of miles are put on them, they are almost like an open diff. The Rancher seems to work somewhat better than the Foreman's I have seen, but then again, the Foreman's all had more miles at the time.

The Visco-lock is a pretty unique design. Basically, how it works, is it has a 'pump' between the two front axles. Whenever one spins more than the other, it 'pumps' up the clutches in the limited slip part of the diff. If you are just turning a corner, it doesn't pump up enough pressure to do much, but when you get stuck, and only 3 wheels spin, it quickly 'pumps' up enough pressure to lock the wheels together. Rode with a guy with a Magnum RMK that had the visco-lock front end. If he got in a 3-wheel-drive situation, one front wheel turned maybe 1/2 turn or so (hard to tell in the mud) then the front wheels would lock together, and both turn the same speed. After going a ways, the pressure slowly releases, allowing for easier steering. I am not sure exactly how it is put together, but that is how it works. About the only drawback I can see is there is no way to lock the wheels together until one spins some.
I really like the Kawi system, too. The tighter you want the front end locked together, the harder you pull on the lever, and it is adjustable for wear. I also like the system that my Xplorer has. I only have 2 wheel engine braking, but for where I ride & my style of riding, it is OK that way. The reason I like the Polaris & Kawi systems best are these:
1. you don't have to spin one wheel first, to get the front wheels to lock, you can do it ahead of time.
2. you aren't rev-limited to under 10 MPH while still having true 4wd.

 

Farmr123 & jscyoung:


I never said that with a limited slip the wheels spin at the same speed, they spin a different speeds, usually the wheel that has lost traction will spin the fastest, the other wheel will spin slower. Also I do know that there are many different types and designs do limited slip, not all of them work. Also I still think you are thinking of an open differential, the brake trick you refer to, yes it works on limited slip, but it also work on regular differentials. In the days before lockers that is how farm tractors would get both wheels to spin in mud, gently apply the brake to the side that had lost traction, this would cause the other tire to spin. I’m not going to say all limited slips work, but on my truck, my dads 1986 Honda & on the front of the John Deere's tractor I’ve plowed with, both tires will spin (again not at the same speed, but both will turn and spin).
Also Mercedes-Benz, did create the 1st CVT transmistion, I think this was just in a Popular Mechanics mag (I may be wrong, I read allot). It's the same idea, the reason I think I remember that anyone can use it was at the time it was deemed not the way to go in there cars and so they let the patent expire, this is why all of the snomobiles can you basically the same transmision.

Ostie or any Honda owner:
I ask you since you list 2 Honda’s that you own that are 4 x 4’s, have you had all 4 wheels spinning, on any of your machines or do I have some kind of magic powers that make more wheels spin than should that I should some how try and market.

 

wanabe,

Yes, I've seen mine with all 4 spinning. I traded rides with a friend and watched as it came through a deep muck hole and all 4 were turning. There are also times when I've seen just one turning.

 

I will have to look again, but neither my Rancher or Rubicon factory repair manuals exploded views of the front differentials show any clutches or springs. I will look again. It seems I looked before I replaced the diff fluid with a full synthetic gear oil to make sure it did not affect the operation if they were the clutch type limited slips. I changed the fluid and added the full synthetic.

I have a Detroit Locker in the rear diff of my pick-up and a factory "Trac-Lok" limited-slip in the front differential. I do know that when both front tires are on the ground and force is applied to the spyder gears from both axles, the force applies the cluthes (by the spyder gears forcing outward against the clutches due to the angle of the cut to the gears themselves) and drive both axles. One wheel in the air and there is not pressure from both axles, there-for no drive from both axles and one wheel spins.

As long as both front wheels of my Honda's are on the ground, they both spin. I have encountered one wheel in the air and it is the only front wheel that spins. When I have let off the throttle so all the wheels quit spinning and reapplied the throttle, the wheel on the ground begain to pull. Why I have no idea but it has happened more than once.

With a limited-slip, you need both wheels on the ground unless you apply the brakes or do something else to apply pressure from both drive axles.

I am not a mudder. The deepest mud I have been in is to the top of the tires. I do alot of "mountain climbing," rock climbing, and just climbing through the mountains and this time of year in the snow. I have yet to need a "locker" in the front. None of my friends whos ATVs are equipped with "true 4-wd" have yet to climb something I have not.

Last winter I went for a trail ride in Wyoming. Most of the trail had about 12" of snow on it. There were 12 Polaris'es and one Honda, me. Everytime I climbed a steep snow covered hill that required full throttle, the guys would watch and in amassment say, "yep, all four wheels spin" as if they only expected 3 to spin. Both fronts turned the same speed. For some reason, these guys did not expect me to go everywhere they did. Almost all the machines were 500's and about six of them where new HO's. They had never been out with a Rubicon or a Rancher (which was not there) that have the newer type front differentials.

There is no doubt that a "locked" front end is more aggressive than a limited slip, but at the cost of steering-ability I can "go" without it.

There is a post in the Polaris forum and they are down on Dirt Wheels too for a review on the 600-700. I guess they are not happy with what DW had to say about Polaris either. It sounds like more people are dropping their subscription than signing up. Magazine sales these days are way down, they better look harder at making people happy than unhappy. I will not subscribe myself. I prefer ATV Magazine. I do believe they are alot better at writing un-biased and useable reviews.