<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: DeeDawg

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: jumbofrank



Here in Michigan you can use a quad to haul a deer or bear out to the nearset road. If you aren't a paraplegic, that's about all you can legally do as far as quads and hunting goes. I think it's too restrictive. There are good and bad ATVers, hunters, and any other group of people. It only takes a few to ruin it for everyone. A bunch of Democrats have been quietly trying to outlaw quads, dirt-bikes, and snowmobiles, on almost all public lands. That's just another way to help them ban hunting and gun ownership. The biggest threat we face is them, and our fellow riders who break the law. I'm not sure who's worse, but I think we're to blame for most of our problems. If you're old enough to vote, but don't, you're part of the problem too. We need to elect people who want to let everyone enjoy the outdoors.</end quote></div>











You are correct in a lot of ways, but I think one of the problems is that even the Republicans are moving left and are allowing our rights to be taken away.</end quote></div>

I always used to tell people the only thing worse than a Republican is a Democrat. That's how much I dislike both parties. I sometimes end up voting for Republicans ONLY because nobody else, like the Libertarians, has a chance. It's always a choice between a Democrat and a Republican. That seems to be less and less of a choice all the time. We actually have a few pro-gun Democrats who hunt, but for the most part Dems are worse than the other @$$holes. It's always a choice between two evils, and never a choice between good and bad, IMO.

 

well I don't see it so much as a party line thing. I loathe both parties, and for the first time since I turned 18, absolutely refuse to vote for either. I can no longer vote for the 'least worst' person. I think they are all idiots, all will gladly sell their own mothers to get power. Not a one has earned my vote. EARNED being the key word. In fact, I can't think of one I'd even allow in my home.

Clinton and that dipshit Gore did alot of damage, shutting down huge swaths of land to any real use. To me, the left seems like they view nature like a museum- look but don't touch.

But give the republicans power and they'll drop oil rigs there and you won't get to ride either.

Both sides are equally worthless. None give a damn either, its just who has the stronger lobby. You, me, and the environment are merely pawns.

 

I've never see any two @$$holes as being equally bad, 50-50. It's always 49-51 or more. One is <u>always</u> worse than the other. I knew people who never voted and then b!tched about who got elected. They didn't do <u>anything</u> to stop it. Anyone who doesn't vote hasn't earned the RIGHT to complain about anything that happens after the election. I don't want to hear a peep out of them for 4 years. IMO the Democrats are worse than the Republicans because they want to stop hunting and ATVs. I'll vote for anyone who has a chance to beat them. I may not be able to hunt <u>on</u> my ATV, but at least ride my ATV, and I can hunt.

 

I used to tow that line too. But that is an incorrect assumption- that a non-vote is a non-opinion.

In fact, the utter refusal to vote for an artificial dichotomy is itself, a vote for NONE OF THE ABOVE.

What I am saying is this- none of the people that some party shoves in front of me is an acceptable choice. What you are doing by voting for the lesser of evils is NOT a choice in any meaningful sense. You aren't choosing who represents you, only the one some party is offering you.

That's not choice. That's just voting for someone because you're given no other choice.

Also- my vote actually means something to me. I will not throw it away on some moron just because he was able to scam enough money to get the selection from the party. That is in no way at all demonstrating an aptitude for anything but parting people from their money.

My vote must be earned. Simply being less of a putz than the other guy does not qualify that person for anything, nor does it rise to the standards I hold for my vote. Not to come off harsh- but it doesn't sound like you hold your vote in very high esteem.
My vote is too precious to just be cast for someone barely better than some other huckster.

See, what you are saying with the lesser of evils vote, is you'll vote for someone 49% evil. That's not enough over the line for me to consider.

What you get is this: voting for the person that will destroy our country slowest.

Well sorry, but I'm not voting for what I consider to be damage to our nation. Doesn't matter if one person is ever so slightly slower in wrecking our country- the point is that they are/will.

Really- what moral victory do you hope to accomplish there? "Well the country is in the *******, but it's flushing more slowly with my candidate????

Nope- first I value my vote too much to waste on some idiot. Don't care if he's less an idiot than the other guy- an idiot is an idiot. Casting a vote for one is still casting a vote for a fool.

Two- it's a great form of protest if done for a reason and not simple laziness. I won't vote for either candidate because I believe them both to be inadequate for the position. Neither are qualified to run this country, and certainly neither represent ME for a damn. So again- why would I vote for either?

I am saying that simply NONE OF THE ABOVE are worthy of my vote. If the system basically picks for you two people out of millions of more qualified people- then you are at best deluding yourself with notions of actually having made any choice at all. You are just playing their game, their rules, and getting nothing out of it.

Vote for 'least worst' if it makes you feel like you participated or something. All you've done is vote for runner up out of two losers. Not impressive.

I suggest people actually consider what went into your right to vote, and how that in no way is represented with the slim 'choice' that the two party system forces you into.

Does your vote really mean so little as to just pass it off to whichever idiot presented offends you least? That's an awfully shallow view of your power to vote. I'd say that is far more of a wasted vote than not voting at all.

When I am presented with someone that I am not outright embarrassed by, I'll consider them. When one actually has a platform I support, then I'll vote for that person. But I will not cast a vote for something lesser just to say I did.

As for the notion of not 'earning a right to complain' because you don't vote. Well Bullshit. I served 11 years in the US Army, most of that in Special Operations, on real world deployments constantly, several trips to combat zones, and was a defense contractor for years following that.

So tell me I haven't 'earned' the right to complain.....sure. If all it takes to 'earn' something is showing up to cast a ballot for the less evil idiot- then again, your view on what earning something is, is woefully sad in comparison. I've earned that right in blood. Which, at least to me, trumps just showing up to cast a vote somewhere. I'm frankly offended that 11 years of military service and several more in the civilian war effort is somehow even on the same page as just showing up to vote.

Sad.

I'll also add that voting for one candidate on a single issue is painfully uninformed. As if ATV's where the most pressing issue a presidential candidate can tackle. Never mind that the US has become little more than a theocracy where science and reality take a back seat to mythology and superstition. As long as we have our ATV"s who cares that all but erased Due Process and rights to privacy.........

And that's not a slam just on the republicans. The dems are no better- again why I'll vote for neither. Between the two, this country has become one of the dumbest nations, with third world countries getting better scores in virtually every subject than we get. In math, the US ranks next to last, far behind countries that only recently got indoor plumbing.

It's a sad commentary when people no longer vote for whom they feel is most qualified, but rather the lesser of two fools. I think it dishonors the sacrifice of those that did give all so you could vote, only to have that vote tossed away on some huckster that's just slightly less likely to ruin the country than the other guy.

 

I'm an army vet too. Maybe military service should be a requirement for citizenship and the right to vote. Just like in Starship Troopers. I understand what you're saying and agree about not voting in principal, but not in practice. I'm not happy about not having a good choce, but it's still a choice. Not voting isn't going to change the way the system works. And not voting will never get a good person elected. IMO, we need another Revolution, not just a silent protest by an un-noticed few. But most people aren't ready to overthrow the government by force. Yet.

In the meantime, if we can get a slightly "better" @$$hole with each election, instead of one that's even worse than the last @$$hole, it will be some progress. Maybe some day we'll have a good candidate, but that's not very likely because only rich power-hungry people get on the ballot. If I vote for a third candidate party I actually like, then it's a wasted vote because they don't have a chance to win. Morally it seems like the right thing to do, but in reality it doen't do any good. The only way to affect the outcome of any election is to vote, unless you have a way to stop the election.

If you refuse to throw your vote away on one of these dumbasses, then you'll never get a chance to vote, because they're all dumbasses. You have the right to not vote, and as a veteran you know what price was paid for that right, and I respect that. But for every person like yourself that has a <u>reason</u> not to, there are hundreds more who are just ignorant and apethetic. I'm sorry I offended you by lumping you in with the proletariat masses. No-one has to earn the right to vote. They just have it by showing up. I think we have not only a right to vote, but a responsibility.

I knew a guy who smoked a lot of dope and voted for Clinton just because he thought Clinton would make pot legal. He was too stoned, or too stupid, to even know how our system of government works, but his vote was equal to yours and mine. Other people vote for even dumber reasons. The complete idiots are the ones who will be deciding the outcome of the election if we don't. My vote means a lot to me, but if it didn't I wouldn't use it. This is one of those desperate situations where I feel like I need to do something. There isn't much else I can do besides vote for one !@#$%^&* or the other. If you know how to fix the system before election day let me know.

 

I never vote on a single issue, unless it's the candidates' position on The Constitution. I generally support whoever tries to uphold it like they swore they would, and not destroy it. Obama wants to get rid of the Second Ammendment, which is the only thing protecting the rest of The Constitution. Without it we will no longer be citizens of a Republic. We'll be subjects of an Oligarchy. Then, when we have no right to vote, it will be much too late to find a worthy candidate.

 

We agree in principal. I'm glad you understand it's not apathy on my part. I take to heart very seriously the power to vote. I have voted since I was 18, and always felt a duty to. However, I have admittedly voted only for the lesser of evils, not once supporting my candidate, only supporting the other guy less.

However I can't vote now. I am fundamentally opposed to most of the positions both candidates stand on. Being about as centrist as possible, I can't cast a vote in either direction without compromising an issue near to me.

The issue is the extreme polarization of the parties. They do not represent America, they only represent that party. I am not one party or the other, I am an American. To vote for either is to betray issues I take most seriously. So I find myself in a quandry.

At the core of my vote is science. Science is the progress of mankind, and what has given us every single modern thing we can't live without, not to mention doubling the average lifespan in less than 100 years- all other topics are at best secondary. Plus, the Scientific Method is the only worthwhile criteria to judge anything on, so even beyond hard and fast numbers, just a scientific mindset is critical for any leader.

Both of the candidates totally fail that litmus test. Neither show even the most basic grasp of science, let alone a reasonable method of drawing conclusions on any topic. I support the Science Debate 2008 campaign, promoted by virtually all major universities, most of the ruling engineering organizations and the National Foundation of Science.

No candidate will go. That would display for all their complete ignorance of any and all topics actually germain to life and progress. Instead they compare religion (which I have zero use for) and hurl insults at each other. Simply- the most important topics are not even being discussed by these people. Everything falling from their mouths is just whitewash to cover for the fact that both are less educated on basic prinicpals of how the universe works than the average 7th grader.

I'd have more confidence in a high schooler's ability to apply logic and critical thinking to any topic. THat is until our school system is totally destroyed by politicians and their dogma.

To vote for either is to 'shut up and accept' mediocrity in it's most plain form. While you say not voting will change nothing, I believe voting under this ridiculous dichotomy is just as bad. You are saying that you give de facto support to a system that serves the US citizen in no way of value. Nothing will change if you lend support to a corrupt system that chooses candidates to lead merely by their ability to generate campaign funds and parrot an extemist viewpoint held by the very few elite.

We The People.......Deserve Better

This is the fault of the radicalism that defines American politics. Ours is every bit as bad as many nations we often mock. So far to the right or left that they are completely out of touch with the people they claim to represent. They essentially pander to a very few on either side of the fence, and then because that voting block has money to fund campaigns.

 

What's the difference between OBama and OSama? Just the BS. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
I will vote for whichever @$$hole I think has the best chance to beat him. Not an ideal way to vote, but the system is far from ideal. I agree with nearly evreything you said, but I think Democrats are twice as bad as Republicans. And, yes, both parties are ruining this country with their radical extemist views.

"We The People.......Deserve Better" Agreed. We absolutely do.

"The issue is the extreme polarization of the parties. They do not represent America, they only represent that party. I am not one party or the other, I am an American. To vote for either is to betray issues I take most seriously. So I find myself in a quandry."

I would vote for for an independant candidate who's beliefs and moral values were closer to my own, if I could find one who had a chance to win. My second choice would be a Libertarian, if they had a chance to win. Unfortunately with our two-party system the best candidates never have a chance. I don't think our government will change until it's overthrown by force. Either from within, by revolution, or from without, by being taken over by a foreign power. I vote for the former. The Second Amendment isn't about hunting.

 

I have been self employed many years,and I vote against candidates,not for them...I use the lesser of two evils for my reason.....in the south we have many freedoms that you folks up north don't have.We also have no Kennedys here.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: pwillie

I have been self employed many years,and I vote against candidates,not for them...I use the lesser of two evils for my reason.....in the south we have many freedoms that you folks up north don't have.We also have no Kennedys here.</end quote></div>

Why is the only Kennedy who deserved to be shot STILL ALIVE?
Can someone PLEASE explain that to me? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

I voted against President Clinton and her husband twice already. I'm ready for the third time.

Don't be a Dumb-o-crat.