We already have too many rpms after installing that black spring. The problem is gearing due to the secondary not opening all the way. It is like being stuck in 4th gear not being able to shift into 5th.

My RPM's are much higher now at high speeds with the black spring than without it. I don't want to take it out, since the stock spring was so weak and allowed the belt to slip so easily. With the black spring, that dang timing retard is hitting us at a lower speed now because we are getting to a higher RPM too soon.

I don't race. But sometimes I hafta drive a long way down a road, and it is nice to go fast. I would like to get the top speed back if there was something simple I could do. Many roads are paved and legal to ride on in this state.

I wish diamondG had not been such a letdown. I had serious hopes for a real solution to the power problem. 2 Years of promises and no results.

 

Isn't that what the ignitition advance will do, raise our RPM's.

Your right about the gearing, but that is because of the size of the clutch, it's much smaller than you'd find on a snowmoble for example.

My point is, when the clutch gets shifted out, the only way to get more speed is to turn it faster, more RPM's.

I'm not recommending taking the black spring out, I'm not going to.

 

Hey NYROC, I know DG is a small company with limited R&D money, but what ever happened to MSD, DYNA, VORTEX, WOLFCDI, etc. Why did all of these companies let us down? MSD is a huge company with 90% of the work done, they just need to adapt their work to the P650. What is so hard about doing that? I haven't seen anything out for the V-Force either. NYROC, you have probably researched this as much as anyone else here, what is the general excuse you get from these big companies?

 

To my knowledge it will raise the rev limiter but it will also increase the timing, which means more power. The horsepower will let us achieve the RPM but the RPM will let us achieve a higher top speed.

You guys talk about opening the clutch, that seems backwards to me. I think the clutches move together pushing the belt higher onto the sheaves. This provides more speed, you let off the throttle and the clutches spread out again and your speed lowers. Shifting out I means how fast the clutch can react to the driver, such as move the sheaves in from out and out from in. Am I correct to assume how the clutch works, in its basic form and that opening the clutch is just some backwards terminology?

I kinda wish I had a snowmobile now for the last 15 years so that I can have some experience with clutches. Do the other ATV manufacturers have larger sheaves on their clutches? If so I wonder if we can make it fit on our atvs, that would allow for a higher top speed. There is some room for a large clutch in there I think. Just thinking outloud.

 

If I'm thinking correctly, both clutch baskets open & close & with the different springs are torque sensitive... as the RPM's of the motor go up, the weights pull the front sheeves together, working the belt higher up the sheeves, in effect, making the front pully larger... the rear pulley starts with the belt riding higher, & as the belt starts riding higher on the front pulley, & as the belt won't stretch, it forces the sheeves apart on the rear pulley, in effect making the rear pulley smaller ( raising the gear ratio / using less RPM's to go faster )... if the spring / clutch weights are not balanced, then the CVT will not work as designed... if for instance during a mud bog, ot ATV pull, the resistance on the tires / quad increases, the RPM's would start dropping on the engine, which would open the front pulley , thus allowing the rear pulley to close more... dropping the overall gear ratio again... as it's fairly complex, when you start talking curved, & different weights of the weights, & changing spring pressures... it's still important that the system is balanced, or it won't work effectively... WAM

 

Newbeatle;

Your right.


bbertram,

when you advance the timeing, you get more power, that power comes from the extra RPM's you'll get at the same fuel input level, from the advanced timing.


The more rpm's you can get, the sooner you can get them is related to that power your talking about.

Look at it this way, if you drove a mile down a road, wide open, and your RPM's were 6500 and you were going 72 MPH,

You now lightened your clutch and raised your RPM's by 300, you now went down the same mile road wide open, your speed would be more, you are now turning you clutches 300 times per minute more. That alone might add 3-5 MPH.

Any way you look at it, the clutches are RPM's senative, the more faster the RPM, the more pressure the clutch weights put on the moveable shelves, the faster they will react and shiftout. Once they are shifted all the way out, and you could add rpm's your turning them faster.

 

At 60 mph, I have more power at lower rpms due to my retarded timing. I need to get my RPM's lower at 60mph in order to go faster. No more power at these rpm's.

Shotgun, you are right about raising the power with lighter components, but we have raised our RPMs with the spring, and our RPM's are too high (for our timing) at high speeds.

I need a heavier/ different weight, or a different drive spring.

 

NYROC... this is why I've been hesitant to change to the black secondary spring, if the spring tension is different than the primary spring / weight combination, the CVT will not shift down as the RPM's drop & power is called for, because the additional secondary spring pressure is greater, than the compined forces of the front clutch...I've witnessed this repeatedly during mud bogs, on quads with EPI kits, & with quads with just the black spring & I'm sure that pulling like SHOTGUN does, shows an improperly balanced clutch system, even more so...I'm greatful for this forum to gather information, as I really think that the clutch mods can help us out quite a bit...until now ( or at least soon ) I've been content to keep my belt tight & run the stock springs...WAM

 

The black spring does help low end a lot, but we over rev at high speeds.

We like the belt pressure due to the longevity the belt gets from it, but the top speed loss is undesireable.

I wanna find a way to fix it.

 

NYROC... was it ALLTOYS or SHOTGUN that talked about machining the sheeves to a 2 degree steeper pitch... what I think is happening, is that the belt doesn't walk all the way up the rear clutch with the black spring installed... for what ever reason... front spring pressure too light, weights too heavy, or shaped incorectly ??? but it would seem to me, if the angle on the rear sheeves was a steeper pitch, it may help the belt walk up the clutch... for racing, I have bypassed the belt safety switch, I may just have to expirement with the cover off to see whats really happening... maybe with the additional secondary spring pressure, the sheeves are actually binding ??? or the shape of the weights, perhaps at low RPM's, the weight shapes perform differently, than at high RPM's ??? I think SHOTGUN holds alot of answers within the clutches of his pullers...WAM