"However, I have no other reason to say this other than I think I smell a misrepresentation somewhere. I am not paid by <> G. I just am oppinionated and I am not exactly sure who is right, I just hope I have adopted an oppinion that will be proven right in the end"

You may be right, but i hope your wrong.

 

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I seen this post there from Scott the technicial who developed the Hole shot module and is currently working on the Top end module. I thought I would just copy and past it. Im glad DG finally spoke up. Hopefully this will put a rest to some of the nonsense thats floating around in the forums. Here it is.


I have been concerned by the amount of inaccurate information recently posted on different forums either intentionally, or because of a lack of understanding of the principles involved. I will try to clarify these facts at the risk of educating the competition, a risk Don said we should take for the benefit of the customers.

I work for Don Grimes of Diamond G Racing and was initially asked to find a method of defeating the timing specifications for the Prairie 650's Igniter, in a way that avoids any possible legal issues with its' original manufacturer (Mitsubishi). I came on board midway in this project and have worked independently of the previous work which was the total redesign of the original Igniter. Here is a timeline of the progress:

Stage 1: Remove Igniter electronics from encapsulation and determine if re-programming the customers' Igniter is possible, and determine basic electronic layout.

This stage took a few months because the urethane potting resin used by the manufacturer is filled with crushed rock. This makes evacuation extremely difficult. The Igniter is a very complicated micro-controller based device composed mostly of high density surface mount components, the heart of which is a custom designed microcontroller running at 8 MHz. This IC is designed with a security feature that once activated by the selective "burning" of the security bits, makes the internal program inaccessible from the external pins. Only full erasure of the entire IC memory will reset this function and allow re-programming. This issue, along with the fact that getting to the IC without damaging it, makes this idea not viable.

Stage 2: Compile a specification sheet for every input and output of the original Igniter and verify their response to varying conditions.

This stage was two-part. The first part was to design and build a test system to allow the second part of defining the Igniters' functions. The first part took about two months and involved building an electronic copy of everything on the Prairie 650's wiring harness which connects to the Igniter. This involves everything from simple adjustable analog signals to more complicated digital synthesis of time-varying signals using synchronous counters and logic. This is actually when the Holeshot circuit was first designed as a substitute for the Prairie 650's speed sensor. I have a complete test system that allows me to interface to the Igniter and vary any input signal and observe the resultant output signal responses. I can profile the timing advance curve from 0 to 10,000RPM. Part two took about a month and provided me with complete specifications of the Igniter.

Stage 3: Find a way to vary the timing advance for the entire range.

The actual method I am currently using I will not divulge but it is the 5th methodology I have tried. I am also on the 11th software revision. This stage has taken months. The Holeshot and the Unlimiter are both necessary to accomplish stage 3. Don decided to go ahead and offer the Holeshot before both were completed to get something in the customer’s hands.

This is the basic process of the development of these devices. I will address each of them separately at this point.

The DG Holeshot. The theory of operation of this device is quite simple. It replaces the signal usually produced by the Prairie 650's speed sensor and sent to the Igniter for decoding. This signal is also decoded by the LCD speedometer and the controller responsible for the Engine Brake System and 2wd/4wd servo control.

The Igniter has only two possible timing advance curves to choose from. I will refer to one as the "Reverse Map" and the other as the "Standard Map". The reverse map is limited 10 degrees of total advance from 2500RPM and up. The standard map ramps up starting at 5 degrees at 1500RPM, up to a max of 28 degrees at 4000RPM. It holds 28 degrees until it reaches 6500RPM where it drops off rapidly in two ramps to only 20 degrees of advance at 8000RPM. The rev limiter is pre-set at 3600RPM in reverse without override and 8500+/-100RPM for all other cases with a 50RPM min hysterics.

The Igniter decodes the speed sensor input and for anything under about 50Hz, which is around 3MPH, the Igniter runs on the reverse timing map. Once this frequency is exceeded it begins to move the timing to the value defined in the standard map. It only allows an advance of about 5 degrees per second. This means that in a race against a non-Holeshot equipped Prairie, the Holeshot Prairie is on the standard timing map at all times, while the standard Prairie is not. Once the standard Prairie reaches about 3MPH, its Igniter will begin to advance to the standard map timing values. It takes about 2-3 seconds for it to reach and run on the standard timing map. During this time the Holeshot Prairie is still running more advance and pulling ahead. This is why the difference is not felt if you roll past 3MPH slow enough for the Igniter to get to the standard map. Once both Prairies are on the standard map, the timing for both is the same. There is no "hardware" switch on the DG Holeshot. Under hard acceleration, about 3 seconds after passing 3MPH, the timing will be the same as the non-Holeshot Prairie, and will continue to stay on that timing map. Slowing down to 10MPH or even 5MPH does not result in a "switching out" or lessening of power, it just means that a stock Prairie will also have the standard timing map power because it is above 3MPH. Claims that a speed sensor-based module can vary the amount of timing from the standard timing map are false. The Igniter makes a simple determination and switches over - period! Some people are under the impression that the timing advance value is in some proportionality to the frequency of the speed sensor's input to the Igniter. That is why some have come up with designs utilizing multiple frequencies. No frequency change above 50Hz will have any effect on timing. I have run this on the test system to verify this many times. There is also no relationship to the amount of timing advance and the rev limiter. Timing advance is a mathematic function of RPM only, while the speed determines map selection. The rev limit is set on the standard map at 8500RPM and completely cuts off the spark at that RPM. It does this exactly the same way at 3600RPM in reverse without override. There is no effect of low or high range on these limits as there is no sensor on the Prairie and no such input to the Igniter.

The bottom line to all of these Holeshot devices is that if they are functioning properly, they will all boost power to the same level and follow the same above described conditions. Switching back to the speed sensors output or to another frequency has no effect since they are both over the 50Hz threshold. I designed the DG Holeshot to use the simplest circuit possible for reliability, the smallest package feasible for non-automated assembly, and chose the best connectors and hardware to include in the kit. The electronics is encapsulated in a special epoxy that is thermally conductive, and I use high quality timing components in the circuit for output stability over a wide range of temperatures. I wanted to make it plug and play, but the connectors are quite expensive and not available in smaller quantities. Don wanted to keep the unit price under $100.

The choice of which device to purchase is the customers. I hope everyone will evaluate the company behind the product before spending their hard earned money. I think Diamond G has some of the best customer service out there in this business. I have personally called people with any hook-up questions and we have even replaced devices that customers have admittedly wired incorrectly and damaged. (Please don’t do this). The choice is yours.

The Unlimiter. This device is in the final stages of development. I can't release all of the details yet but here is a summary.

The Unlimiter is not a "Holeshot" derivative but is an entirely different breed of cat. It connects to the Igniter with only 4 wires, and does not use the speed sensor input wire (Pink wire). It has nothing to do with “over clocking IC’s”, or any such esoteric ideas. This device contains analog filters and comparator circuitry and utilizes a 24MHz core processor which has been programmed completely in assembly language for high speed operation. This device will allow selective timing changes to be made to the standard map at any RPM of choice. It can retard or advance the timing value from its original pre-programmed values. It "adds" to the currently running timing map and that is why the Holeshot is still necessary for the low end boost. Adding timing advance to the reverse map and then switching to the standard map is not efficient. I can add as much as 20 addition degrees of timing to the original curve. The resultant timing curve will maintain more than 28 degrees of advance and add addition power fully to the rev limit of 8500RPM. It cannot change the rev limit of 8500RPM, but Don and I agreed that 8500RPM is a safe upper limit for reliability for 99.9% of the customers who will not venture beyond big bore kits and cam changes. The Unlimiter device will increase the top speed of the Prairie by an amount dependent on the level of other modifications and tire selection just like any other performance mod. A completely stock machine will benefit. The comment that running a higher advance to the rev limiter, instead of running the stock retarded profile, will not give you any effect on top end is false. Anyone whom has tested the prototype Prairie 650 can verify that. We want to keep the cost down and to provide the same performance as any future igniter replacement could. After the release of the Unlimiter, I will return to designing a more complicated and expensive device as a replacement igniter or a combined version of the Holeshot and Unlimiter with some programmability or selection of different timing curves for the other 0.1% of the customers willing to pay for those features.

I personally enjoy riding more than I enjoy engineering electronics, and I am the kind of customer I have designed these devices for. For those of you wishing more control over your ignition, I suggest adapting off the shelf units available for a high price that can be ran independently from the stock igniter. You will lose some safety features but that goes with the territory. This will require some fabrication to mount crank triggers and so forth.

I hope this clears up some of the misunderstanding of the modules, and I welcome any of the other makers to challenge my research on this subject. Don has given away several Holeshots for testing and I encourage the competition to step up to the plate and submit theirs as well for an unbiased third party test. Competition is good because it ensures the customer will get a good product for a reasonable price.

I have limited time to respond to questions as I really wish to finish the Unlimiter. I will try to respond from time to time and keep everyone updated.

Thanks, Scott.

Wed Aug 06, 2003 5:49 pm

 

I have no reason not to believe alltoys with his comparision. I will read that big long post now and see what it says.

 

" i'll read that big long post now & see what it says" ... Brent, you are a funny guy ...LOL...WAM

 

DGR tech wrote - I know for a fact that my original Canadian module causes a power loss on the top end. This has been timed, tested and proven by myself and others. If above 40mph and pulling up a steep hill, the loss is considerable. If the modules will only force the CDI to run on it's standard map, this couldn't possibly happen. I feel there is a timing difference depending on the signal output. Alltoys, others - correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Scott,
You are right Freedoms did loose around 3-5 mph on top end. DG's does revert to OEM specs before top end does not loose on top end but it doesn't get there as fast as Reds or Nabors. Freedoms and DGs has a lower frequency output than Reds and Nabors that could possibly relate to slower holeshots. Reds and Nabors units put out higher frequency which make them a faster holeshot modulator they will not go any faster than rev limiter but get there faster. These are my findings and I stick by them. All the bench work in the world doesn't hold beens to real world testing. I beleive DG's Scott first cdi attempt crashed as there was to much electrcal interferance on the quad so back to the bench. That is about the time the modulators sprung up.

Here is a question that I have about adding timeing to the cdi with an Unlimiter. On the crank full timeing advance is set at 28 degrees this is why the cdi will only give 28 degrees. It was said the timeing will be added to 28 by programing something or other and pushing the limiter to 8500 which he says we already have. I would really like to see how a person can add timeing to something that isn't there to start with rev limit I can see that being advanced. Interesting I think 10% add on is not most people want just my thoughts. I would like to see 9000 - 9200 myself just for fun LOL.

 

BadBamaPrairie,
Just to keep the record straight I have no affiliation with Nabor Kawasaki at all. I think it all started when I made a post about how dissatisfied I was with the Vforce and with a few modds it could come alive. I have ordered parts from Ted found his technical information helpful with my modds. I told him what I have done with 650 he then asked what could be done to his demo V700 that would make it sit up and take notice. I jokenly said let me work on it see what I can do and he said OK. It almost floored me that somebody would let me play with their machine plus I got some saddle time and I got to smoke my buddy on his Raptor so that was good too. To tell you the truth the V700 is too much of a racer for me I like to play in the mudd that is more my style. I modified some minor stuff but there is at least 30% performance to be had in the motor alone. There is great amount of potential in the quad I had fun with it now it is time to hand it back. I think I would like to play with Predator 500 next anyone interested in donating to science LOL.

 

DG's module does not revert in any way. It has no inputs, so it doesn't know how fast you go or how high the rpms are. It is always on, like a stobe light. It has no logic or intelligence that would cause it to change frequencies. It just has a hot wire (red), a ground (black), and an output wire (purple). DG's instructions mislead people into thinking that it changes or switches. It doesn't. It just prevents the CDI from going into retard mode when you slow down.

I rode my 650 with a DG module tonite. It did not affect top speed at all.

In fact it was harder to load the 650 on the trailer due to the power, and it was harder to get it on the rear wheel dolly I use to roll it around the garage on. It is a bit too jumpy sometimes.

 

alltoys,
Thanks for the confirmation. I'm glad we can all have healthy debate in this kawi forum. Have you ever seen how much immature name calling goes on in the honda or yamaha forum?? WOW! I'm glad I bought a kawisaki! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

 

I'm just going to get a Diamond G becauses it AMERICAN!!!!!

those WMD's...they're prolly in Canada........sadam, he's prolly there too..... you just wait till we pinpoint the location and we'll show you what we think of canadian bacon... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]