Did a little checking around tonite and found out the following about the new Wolverine 450 as it compares to some of the big bore 4x4s like the P700, etc.:

1) The stock Wolverine 450 is approx 80 lbs lighter than the stock P700 and stock Rincon 650...in otherwords, the P700/Rincon 680 is approximately 17% heavier than the Wolverine 450 and the Bomb 800 is approx. 24% heavier than the Wolverine 450. This is important b/c the lighter machine doesn't need to have the same amount of HP as the heavier machine to be equal in a drag race.

***NOTE: I checked the FST website today and it does indeed show a 500cc BBK available for the Kodiak 450 motor (this is generally the same water cooled 421cc motor that is found in the Wolverine 450). This 500cc BBK is approx. $1,050 PLUS LABOR & MACHINE WORK. Who knows...with this 500cc kit installed, the lighter weight Wolverine 450 might just be able to keep up with the P700s in a short drag race??? Wouldn't that be something!

2) By comparison, the Wolverine 450 is approx. 5 INCHES narrower than the P700 and Rincon 680...its also 4.5 INCHES narrower than the Bomb 800.

3) By comparison, the Wolverine 450 has approx. 1 INCH lower seat height than the P700 and Rincon 680. This is not that big of a deal to me b/c I use 22" tires on my P650 and my seat height is right at 32.0"...which is about 1.5" less than the Wolverine 450's seat height.

The narrower stance (and lower seat height) of the Wolverine 450 makes me think it will be HARD to beat in a tight woods XC race! Interestingly, someone pointed out recently on one of the forums that the Wolverine 450 does not come with racks...so that means it technically qualifies to race in the Utility Unlimited Class of the GNCC (along with the V-force and Scrambler 500 4x4) instead of the Utility Classes. However, my local XC series does not mention racks as a criteria to run in the ute class, so technically it can race in my Ute Class (along with the P700s, Rincons, etc.)

Happy trails...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

i like the wolvie and i think it has it's place, but i really don't think the 17% weight difference is gonna make up for the 25% (compared to the 650) to 29% (compared to the 700) displacement difference. it might be strong, but i think you'll have to sink lots of money into it to make it run with the 650/700. the smaller size may matter on some courses but the narrower width gives up something in the corners. don't get me wrong, i'm not bashing the wolvie, but it just isn't gonna keep up unless the track is set up to give every possible advantage.
i have been known to be wrong before tho...

monty

Monty,
Keep in mind the general rule of thumb for drag racers. For every time you double the weight of a car, you need 4 TIMES the amount of HP to make it accelerate at the same rate.

If that rule of thumb is somewhat accurate, then the P700's 17% weight increase over the Wolverine means that the P700 motor needs to put out at least 34% more HP than the Wolverine in order to accelerate just as fast as the Wolverine. In other words, the Wolverine motor (with 500cc BBK) only needs to produce 66% of the max HP of a P700 in order to accelerate just as fast as the P700.

Just a wild guess here, but I would think that a 500cc BBK may give the Wolverine motor at least 66% of the HP of a P700. To use real numbers, the stock P700 motor puts out something like 45 HP at the crank meaning the Wolverine motor needs to put out 30 HP at the crank to equal the acceleration of the P700. So what do you guys think???


PS - I see you have the new BF650i. I'm very interested in hearing some real world feedback on that machine. I especially want to know how it handles tight turns (is it significantly better than the handling on the BF750?). Also, I'd like to know how it compares in a drag race with other Kaw. V-twins like the P700 or BF750. I'm very hopeful that the new BF650i's improvements to the motor/suspension/steering will be a big hit and that Kaw. will eventually use the same upgrades in the BF750.

Happy trails...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

I think the brute/prairie platform has much more potential.

Here's my point. You can buy a 650 brute and put the 840cc kit in it. This will probably get you into the 60 + hp range (at the crank). The weight savings on the wolverine will not make up for only having half the horses. The total investment of these hypothetical racers would be close to the same.


I'd have to go with the Kawasaki; it' just a better deal.


Here is a rule of thumb that does work for the most part:
When drag racing (automobiles), a weight difference of 100lbs makes about a 10th of a second difference in the quarter mile.
Ten horsepower will pretty much make up this difference.

oh and btw Mickey,


Your praire looks cool with the 22" wheels. How's the top end with the shorter tires?

Thanx for the compliment on my quad (aka the Killer Bee). I had these 22" tires on my old 2003 P650 and I was pleasantly surprised to find that I only lost 1 mph top-speed. I haven't re-checked my top-speed on my current 2002 P650, but I'm sure its a similar difference. I guess the weight savings on the 22" tires makes up for the smaller diameter.

PS - You are absolutely right about the investment being similar (BBK installed on a P700 vs. BBK installed on a Wolverine 450) and the results of those 2 quads (with BBKs on each one) would clearly favor the P700 with BBK in a drag race. However, I still believe that the narrower Wolverine with BBK would have a real advantage in a XC course with lots of tight woods. Unlike a drag race, the fastest machine in a XC race is not always the winner (riders skill & endurance play a big role and I'm thinking the lighter weight, narrower (and more agile?) Wolverine might possibly be the better choice in tight woods XC racing when compared to the P700. But its probably too soon to say b/c I haven't heard any real world reports yet as to how a Wolverine 450 does in a XC race.

Happy trails...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Have you ever timed 300 ft runs with lets say factory wheels and tires and then your 22 inch setup? I ran in a drag event last year and did very well. I was running 52 mph (no timer available) at 300 ft on hard dirt with a loose surface with heavy dirt devils full of tire slime and a winch. I was wondering how a set of 22's with maxxis 4snows all the way around would help.

Da Riot,
The closest I have done is to that kind of comparison was only my former P650 (2003) when I did runs on a 1/2 mile long road in the back of my neighborhood with my 22" tires and then ran the same road with my set of 25" bearclaws mounted on ITP C-series (the old type 4) rims. The difference in max speed on this road was only 1 mph (after adjusting for speedo differences...obviously the 22" tires throws off the speedo readout).

If I was doing a serious drag race with my quad, I'd definitely go buy myself the Maxxis 4 snow tires b/c they are SUPER LIGHT and also change shape (the get taller and skinnier) as you speed up. However, they fit on a very small rim (like 9"), so you might have to remove the front brakes to make them fit on the front.

Happy trails...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

The Wolverine will never even be in the same class as the Prairie 650/700. It's a kodiak engine, not a performance machine by any means. I have talked to a couple of dealers who have the wolverines in stock. They suggest them as a good easy to use sort of sport machine for women and smaller riders. The engine they use is just not meant to be a screamer no matter what you do to it.

Mikey, if the new wolverine is anything like my old Kodiac from which its chassis came from I don't think its going to work out as well as what you have. The Kodiac I had weighed only 36lbs more, as I recall from a few months ago when the new Wolverine was first anounced It looked like my old kodiac with new plastic and smaller tires, so I started digging into the spec's of the old SRA kodiac vs the new Wolverine. It was clear they were the same machine other than the tires and plastic. I also recall the new 450 wolverine has only 420cc compared to the kodiac I had that had 401cc's. I sold that kodiac to a buddy of mine and the Prairie 650 just waxes the poor Kodiac. Its not even in the same ballpark as the Prairie. I myself out way my buddy buy more than 50 pounds and its not even funny how bad the prairie beats the Kodiac. I have a hard time beleaving the new Wolverine version even with the diet and the extra 19cc's is realy going to make much differnce. I know the tires are going to be a little bit better in the weight department but I doubt the old dunlops that are on my old Kodiac weigh more than a pound or so more than the new wolverine tire. The unsprung weight is more important than the sprung weight, but even that small gain is IMO not likely to make up much of the ground needed to run with a P650, or a P700. It I think you would be facing an uphill battle the whole way to getting much in the way of Kawi twin performance out of the Wolverine.