Hardcore...Pay attention...you started this bash.

If you're thinking that your ac suspension makes you immune from falling, then you are in for a real eye-opener one of these days. I've ridden enough to know that there are some places where nothing will go. There's a lot of rocky hills and powerlines around here. I've climbed a lot, did this did that, so on and so forth. I'm one of those people who try stuff they probably shouldn't, then wonder "what am I doin'?" about halfway up a bad-*** hill, turning back or backing down would be an impossibility so I keep goin'. You think a solid axle keeps you from climbing, well I disagree. Your opinion's yours and mine is mine, however short YOUR ***** might be. I'd hope we could refrain from such silliness, but obviously silly is your forte. I have been more than happy with my wheeler because it performs great for a 4x4 utilty, anywhere.

p.s. I'm not too brand loyal when it comes to my dollar. Just a glance at my signature would have told you that. A little of everything, plus a Honda 300, but doesn't everyone have one of those.

 

> Hardcore...Pay attention...you started this bash.

dude.......pay attention.....im not bashing _anything_.....or anyone.

> If you're thinking that your ac suspension makes you immune from falling,

now stop making things up. i _never_ said or suggested this in any way.

>You think a solid axle keeps you from climbing, well I disagree. Your opinion's yours and mine is mine

it has _nothing_ to do with my opinion or your opinion, and it has nothing to do with a solid axle (its the non articulating swing arm thats the problem). this is common knowledge and accepted as factual truth by anyone with any rock climbing experience. if you are suggesting that a swing arm quad of _any_ make is just as capable in the rocks as any type of articulating suspension you truly are ignorant to rock climbing and the potential dangers involved. as such i strongly discourage anyone from taking your advice seriously. youre going to get someone busted up.

 

There is no doubt at all that a straight axle is less maintenance than an IRS rear end. That is a give away. Straight axles are basically no-maintenance, where you are going to have cv worries with IRS for the rest of your life. That one I think everyone will agree on.

 

Slinger, I haven't put much weight at all, but it doesn't squat though. Its not the suspension that limits it, but the sway bar. I mean, the sway bar won't let it go maybe an inch, and it still baffles me why the thing rides so well with this.

The sway bar itself is stationary. It doesn't move up or down at all. Damn thing just sits there like part of the frame. The thing that moves is the place where it connects to where the wheel attaches. Each side has its own little tie rod looking thing on it, and they have ball joints in them that rotate. The total play of these things isn't very much at all, and thus, you don't have the sag like some IRS quads have, but also, you don't have that "all 4 on the ground" effect either. Back one tire up on a rock, and the 660 teeters just like a prairie 650 would. No advantage there.

Now if you took the sway bar off, the IRS would be like a sportsman, and would have the sag. I disconnected one end of the swaybar a week ago to see what it would do. Backed it up on that one rear tire, and the suspension squatted to the point that the sway bar came in contact with the a-arm and wouldn't let it move any more. Basically, to do this, you would have to take the sway bar off the bike completely, because its in the way of the a-arms. Someday, I might take it off, and set the shocks to the stiffest setting and see what its like. This would give me the independant stability I think that it is lacking right now. Of course, who knows if this would work very well. I don't know how well it would support itself without the sway bar, but I may find out someday just for the hell of it.

Bascically to answer your question about the sag, there really isn't much, maybe an inch under some weight, because that sway bar just won't let it come down. I would rather it sag personally, because it would also be able to keep all 4 on the ground better.

 

I can understand where Hardcore is coming from here. He's not really bashing that Prairie. For the most part, what he is saying here is that its a **** poor choice for a rock climbing quad. In his defense, from what he has said so far, he could just as easily say the same thing for a Rubicon, Grizzly 600 (or 660 in my mind), Kodiak, Foreman 450, Bombardier, Prairie 400, Magnum 500, and the list goes on and on. I don't think he's trying to be a jackass or anything.

 

> he could just as easily say the same thing for a Rubicon, Grizzly 600 (or 660 in my mind), Kodiak, Foreman 450, Bombardier, Prairie 400, Magnum 500, and the list goes on and on.

definately. they are all great quads until you put them in the rocks. as you already seem to know, rock crawling requires articulation that they just dont have. granted, there arent many who ride rocks exclusively.......but since i happen to be one of them its the only view point from which i can speak. i try to speak directly and clearly so that my thoughts, beliefs, and opinions can be perceived by those who read them exactly as i intended them to be. that doesnt always work out. :-)

> I don't think he's trying to be a jackass or anything.

no, not at all. i am passionate about it because i recently buried a friend who was killed on his sportsman. his accident had nothing to do with articulation, but it certainly serves as a reminder to how dangerous atvs _can_ be. the worst accident ive seen that _was_ due to a lack of articulation happened to a guy that used to ride with us. he and his wife were riding double on his warrior (swing arm) in what is considered to be a relatively easy rock trail. they rolled over and now his wife is paralyzed from the neck down. they had been married 3 weeks. i know you arent supposed to ride double but 1) we all do it and 2) nobody else ever had trouble on that trail riding double. because of this and so many other accidents ive seen as a result of no articulation, the notion of someone taking a swing arm quad into the rocks bothers me.......but to encourage someone who doesnt know any better to do it by telling them there is no difference literally angers me.

 

Hardcore-
I know exactly where you're coming from. I've been in this argument many times before about the rear swing axle on the 'Cat, how much better it is than any other strait axle quad out there. Yes, next to the SP's IRS it is the smoothest, but for a strait axle quad, it is the best, period. Not only for the rocks, but also for the steep uphill, deep rutted trails I follow, otherwise known as deer or elk trails, which as you hunters know-are next to impossible to find at times, let alone follow-especially on a 4-wheeled vehicle! Fallen timber and trees are another big one-the 'Cat handles this stuff a lot better than any other strait axle quad, due to the design and how it articulates, like you've mentioned several times already. I do a little rock crawling at times myself, though probably not near what you ride on a daily basis. I couldn't agree more with that bit about sending just "any" strait axle quad into a REAL rock crawling situation-it's crazy, just asking for trouble.

Kind of like taking a guy out elk hunting with an old '94 winchester .30-30, and expecting to take 250+ yard shots. You just don't do it. Is the .30-30 a bad gun? Hell NO! It's an awesome rifle, proven time and time again. I have one myself and absolutely love it. Can it shoot an elk? Most definately, but within reason and range. You won't use it for those long shots, as it just don't have the power to reach out that far and knock that animal down. My own .30-30 was handed down to me by my grandpa, who also gave me his old .30-06. This .30-30 has killed far more elk than the .30-06 (which has killed a very impressive number already). Why? Because the .30-30 was left in camp with my grandma. While the guys went out hunting, she stayed in camp doing chores, or relaxing, whatever. Elk would happen to wander by, she'd pick up the .30-30 and drop it, then when the guys came back empty handed, there'd usually be an elk laying within 30 yards of the camp for them to tend to. Again, it's a great gun for what it was designed for. You won't use it for long shots on elk, much like you won't use a standard strait axle quad for serious rock crawling-it is just too dangerous.

I'm very sorry to hear about your loss there-that explains exactly why you feel so passionately about the subject. Guys like myself appreciate that kind of thing, and especially things like recommending the right tool for the job. In this case, yes, I do agree with you the 'Cat has the advantage in these types of situations. Is it the best quad out there? No, for most people it's not, but it does have the best articulation of any strait axle out there, hands down. I've ridden with nearly all other makes of quads out there and so far, the only one that managed to get the same places I did while up at elk camp, was the SP500. The strait axle units got too tippy, and simply couldn't follow in the same path. Some found alternate routes around, others didn't even bother. Coming out? Now, that was a different story-that Polaris was s.o.l. with that 2wd downhill bit, but we won't get into that...

Best of Luck Man, keep up the good posts.

Mike

 

> Yes, next to the SP's IRS it is the smoothest, but for a strait axle quad, it is the best, period.

i agree that the sp is the smoothest everywhere _except_ the larger rocks. i was getting ready to purchase a sportsman 500 h.o. for rock crawling because it was the best i had ridden. i discovered arctic cat by accident really.....i was sitting on a friends sp500 when i topped a hill and met a guy with a big cat. i didnt like the body roll and i missed the speed of the sportsman, but in the rocks it walked away from the polaris because it articulates so well. in all honesty it didnt win out by much and overall the sportsman was a better quad. if i didnt ride rocks _exclusively_ i would of purchased a sportsman for myself. im in the process of purchasing one for my wife though, if me and the local polaris dealer can ever agree on what theyre worth.

> I do a little rock crawling at times myself, though probably not near what you ride on a daily basis.

lol....with me its a sickness i cant seem to shake. :-) i started rock crawling in jeeps but there came too many times when i turned around because i didnt wanna bash up my jeep. its hard to bash a runner on a vehicle thats your daily driver. as long as im sending them $502 a month payment i dont plan on denting/scratching _anything_ on it. :-) anyway....i watched the atv's at uwharrie zip in and around the rocks that took forever to manipulate in a jeep and i knew it was time to get another atv. :-)

> I couldn't agree more with that bit about sending just "any" strait axle quad into a REAL rock crawling situation-it's crazy, just asking for trouble.

i know that the skills of the driver can make a huge difference but most people really arent as good as they think they are. if youre going to place yourself in a potentially dangerous position (380 foot tall 68+ degree climb with loose rocks all over the place) at least prepare yourself with every possible advantage available at a reasonable cost.

> Elk would happen to wander by, she'd pick up the .30-30 and drop it, then when the guys came back empty handed, there'd usually be an elk laying within 30 yards of the camp for them to tend to.

lol.....excellent story!

> I'm very sorry to hear about your loss there-that explains exactly why you feel so passionately about the subject.

thanks. we had planned a ride over a month in advance. when he didnt show up for the ride i called his house with the intention of chewing him out for not showing. his wife told me he had been killed 2 weeks prior, and she gave me all the details.

>Is it the best quad out there? No, for most people it's not

i agree. it would not be my first choice for anything other than crawling rocks. its a nice quad dont get me wrong, but if i didnt need the absolute most articulation available for rocks i would of bought the sportsman 500 h.o.


> it does have the best articulation of any strait axle out there

ill even go one step farther and state that it has the best articulation of any quad period. that comes at the cost of body roll.......but for me it was worth it.

> The strait axle units got too tippy,

i hate that feeling......but im still recovering from the mental scars left by my own rollover.

> Polaris was s.o.l. with that 2wd downhill bit, but we won't get into that...

lol! that was another key factor that definately affected my decision. my hand gets cramps from squeezing my brake handle so much coming down hill and i _do_ have 4 wheel engine braking. i couldnt imagine riding without it. :-)

> Best of Luck Man, keep up the good posts.

many thanks mike. ive got a video that im going to rip into an mpg at some point and put it online (if the author grants permission). some online friends of mine took 13 sportsmans (irs), 3 arctic cats (ACT), 1 suzuki king quad (irs), and 2 honda rubicons (swing arm) through parts of the rubicon trail. watching the 2 rubicons wheels go in the air constantly demonstrates _perfectly_ what ive been saying all along about swing arms.

 

hardcore, I haven't advised anyone to try anything. I'm just saying that if YOU can't climb with a ****-poor Prairie, then you must be a ****-poor rider. I'm not the ignorant guy letting newcomers follow me up steep hills and letting them get "busted up" like you are, so follow your own advice.

Andy, thanks for the real information. I was wondering about the rear-end. Is the sway-bar fairly easy to get off? It would seem to be the best of both worlds, if it could remove it for some really aggressive riding and put it back on for work-type applications. I really dig that silver Grizzly. The biggest reason I have frowned upon irs in the past is because that it was generally found on a Polaris, a quad I won't soon have again. With Yamaha making one though, as well as A/c and who knows who else, I'm pretty confident that they'll get it right.

The caliber of four-wheelers they have now is unbelievable. I remember when there was nothing new for YEARS, now every manufacturer has at least one quad I'd seriously like. The big-bore wars are raging. Yamaha, Prairie, A/C, and even Suzuki! I'll bet the Rubicon gets knocked down big time.

 

hardcore, I haven't advised anyone to try anything.

indirectly you _have_! by claiming a swing arm is indeed just as safe in the rocks (even though it has ZERO articulation <rolling eyes&gt[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] is giving someone new to this sport bad information that could indeed hurt them.

>I'm just saying that if YOU can't climb with a ****-poor Prairie, then you must be a ****-poor rider.

ha ha......yeah.......thats gotta be it dude. youre right man....articulation servers _no_ legitimate purpose. in fact, im on my way right now to weld my axle and a-arms to my frame to prevent any future articulation.

wow.....im a **** poor rider. thats a hard pill to swallow. anybody wanna buy my cat?

>I'm not the ignorant guy letting newcomers follow me up steep hills and letting them get "busted up" like you are, so follow your own advice.

dude.....youve gone from being mean to just out-right making things up. that or your reading comprehension fell out of your pocket on your last fall. dude.....i _clearly_ stated that we had just met this man. i _clearly_ stated that he had 30 years of experience. i _never_ stated or indicated in any way that he was new to atv'ing. was i supposed to tell him that hes not allowed to run any trail he chose to run?

please......

if you wanna argue with yourself dude you can have at it. im done. those who crawl rocks dont need me to point out your level of ignorance on this topic. i hope that those that _dont_ know any better will at least proceed with caution if they take your word on swing arm rock performance and safety/stability.

happy trails man.