blew the crank
#11
02-15-2003, 01:56 AM
blew the crank
Mudboger,
Looks like you are having fun with your machine, are you sure your crank is toast. The cranks are roller bearinged in these quads with all the math should handle 80hp without a hiccup. I find it hard to believe you scraped a crank there must be something else that contributed to the failure. I have had my motor apart and I am not sure you will be able to run a stroker with the head that is on the quad. You will have to adapt the jug and the head to do so. Your compression will raise so there will be other concerns that will have to be dealt with. If you do the crank and not the rest you will have an under square motor, good torque but not much in the mid - hirange. You will have to do the rest. I am 2/3 complete on my charger just have to finish the manifold and line things up. I am doing the opposite for compression, I am actually shooting for 8.5/1 so I don't blow the heads off the motor. I have the new gears for the charger and ready to mount in to the crank case by march/april I should be ready for test run.
Nyroc,
The one who will remain nameless, I Iike that, (2Wolfman) I think he would like it too. Nyroc I think you are showing us your humorous side not all technical stuff thats good to see.
Mudboger,
Wouldn't it be interesting if you came up to those 700's, smoked them and said you had a 650 rather than a 785 or 800?
Looks like you are having fun with your machine, are you sure your crank is toast. The cranks are roller bearinged in these quads with all the math should handle 80hp without a hiccup. I find it hard to believe you scraped a crank there must be something else that contributed to the failure. I have had my motor apart and I am not sure you will be able to run a stroker with the head that is on the quad. You will have to adapt the jug and the head to do so. Your compression will raise so there will be other concerns that will have to be dealt with. If you do the crank and not the rest you will have an under square motor, good torque but not much in the mid - hirange. You will have to do the rest. I am 2/3 complete on my charger just have to finish the manifold and line things up. I am doing the opposite for compression, I am actually shooting for 8.5/1 so I don't blow the heads off the motor. I have the new gears for the charger and ready to mount in to the crank case by march/april I should be ready for test run.
Nyroc,
The one who will remain nameless, I Iike that, (2Wolfman) I think he would like it too. Nyroc I think you are showing us your humorous side not all technical stuff thats good to see.
Mudboger,
Wouldn't it be interesting if you came up to those 700's, smoked them and said you had a 650 rather than a 785 or 800?
#12
02-15-2003, 08:55 AM
blew the crank
I am in a good mood because I got a permanent job that pays better, benefits, vacation, and has lots of room for growth, lots of performance based raises. I start low, and have to commute 50 minutes each way, but only have to work 7hrs per day. My bro was also out work for 5 months and just got a permanent job. He will be doing a lot of web development and I am hoping he can help me out with my website.
I can't afford a new truck yet, but no biggy since the old one isn't bad.
I can still afford tires, CDI, and even cams if I feel like it.
Sounds like a stroker might be a little more involved. However, a lot of automobiles are severly undersquare and have just fine power curves. The Ford Lightning and at least one year of SVT Mustang Cobra R has a 90mm bore and a 105mm stroke. I'm not saying that these cars wouldn't benefit from a different geometry but they work well enough.
Automobiles are starting to stroke more and bore less for a few reasons. Honda is really big on this undersquare stuff:
1. They burn cleaner. A lot of emisions come from the gap between the ring and piston crown. Unburned hydrocarbons hide there and come out after the power stroke.
2. Closer tolerances possible on smaller pistons mean less oil burning, less emisions, increased ring and piston life.
3. Fuel economy, a little more torque at a lower RPM.
Disadvantages:
The engine is BIGGER. It makes engines generally taller. Smallblock V8's are oversquare, and are some of the most compact powerplants per CC.
The engine is generally heavier, and needs really beefy rods and crank.
Smaller valves due to smaller head area. Generally harder to get the flow from them.
I don't know why I said that. That stuff probably has zero impact on mudbogger's decision to bore or stroke.
I can't afford a new truck yet, but no biggy since the old one isn't bad.
I can still afford tires, CDI, and even cams if I feel like it.
Sounds like a stroker might be a little more involved. However, a lot of automobiles are severly undersquare and have just fine power curves. The Ford Lightning and at least one year of SVT Mustang Cobra R has a 90mm bore and a 105mm stroke. I'm not saying that these cars wouldn't benefit from a different geometry but they work well enough.
Automobiles are starting to stroke more and bore less for a few reasons. Honda is really big on this undersquare stuff:
1. They burn cleaner. A lot of emisions come from the gap between the ring and piston crown. Unburned hydrocarbons hide there and come out after the power stroke.
2. Closer tolerances possible on smaller pistons mean less oil burning, less emisions, increased ring and piston life.
3. Fuel economy, a little more torque at a lower RPM.
Disadvantages:
The engine is BIGGER. It makes engines generally taller. Smallblock V8's are oversquare, and are some of the most compact powerplants per CC.
The engine is generally heavier, and needs really beefy rods and crank.
Smaller valves due to smaller head area. Generally harder to get the flow from them.
I don't know why I said that. That stuff probably has zero impact on mudbogger's decision to bore or stroke.
#13
02-15-2003, 10:31 AM
blew the crank
Running the 700 crank shouldnt be that big of deal. If the 700 cylinders are the same height as the 650 then you just need to run the shorter 700 rods. If the rods are the same length then you would have to check into the 700 cylinders. The compression ratio is so low on the 650 that it should be tolerable with the small increase in compression running that kit. You may have to do some mild compression chamer work but it will be worth it. The only thing i would be worried about is the rubber band holding up. I only have some minor mods and i am on my second rubber in 1000mi. And i do keep my belt deflection right with red/black spring combo. Maybe we will be lucky and the 700's belt is better and will fit in our 650's. That would be great.
#14
02-15-2003, 10:43 AM
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blew the crank
Alltoys,I dont know if the crank is junk it didnt snap but I know I froze a bearing,it could be a rod bearing I dont know.What I do know is It started bogging down then knocked then locked up all in about 5 sec.I am aware that with a stroker I do need special pistons 3mm shorter or a raised pin that is the only way a stroker could work otherwise you would blow the head off.I guess this is my Idea In the v-force they got tons more torque than the prairie,where did it come from(prarie80mmx63mm & v-force 82mmx66mm)?the stroke must have something to do with it otherwise they wouldnt have gone through the trouble of making a new crank.Are you saying I should go with a smaller piston to keep it closer to square?What trouble would I have with the heads?I want to keep it in the 10.0-11.0 comp range to keep it reliable.I dont want to run a supercharger or nos(well I do but...)so the only way I can see to get more ponies is displacement.
Nyroc,congrats on the new job hope you like it.this stroker is new to all of us say what ever comes to mind thats how we get through this any info is better than none.
Both of you,thanks for the info this could be fun building this thing,keep the ideas coming between all of us I think we can build the perfect prairie motor.....later
Nyroc,congrats on the new job hope you like it.this stroker is new to all of us say what ever comes to mind thats how we get through this any info is better than none.
Both of you,thanks for the info this could be fun building this thing,keep the ideas coming between all of us I think we can build the perfect prairie motor.....later
#15
02-15-2003, 10:53 AM
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blew the crank
mtecate,you are right but if I'm going to get custom pistons any way why not just get them with a raised pin then i can use the stock rod and keep my 10-1 comp.I'm not made of money so new cyl is out, I need to make as much of the stock stuff work as I can.I built a stroker 350 chev a few years ago used a 400 crank and stock rods just had to get custom pistons with raised pins,stock heads and all.thanks for the reply I'll use any info I can get...later
#16
02-15-2003, 10:56 AM
blew the crank
mudboger
You dont have to have specail pistons if you have the right rod length. More than likely the pistons pin point is the same on the 650 as it is on the 700 they just are using a shorter rod on the 700. If you buy a 700 crank more than likely it will come with rods. Then when you oder the pistons you'll have to explain to the builder that you are running a longer stroke and want a stock compression piston. The big bore with the stock compression piston would probably run a hair under 11:1 ratio. I have built quite a few stroker motors in cars and know what goes with what and so forth. I also built a stroker tecate back a few years ago. I used a kx cylinder for the power valves and newer design and had a tecate big bore 300 sleeve put in it. The KX runs a longer stroke so i used the crank and rod out of an 87 KX since it would bolt right into the cases. When i was done i had a banshee smoking 330cc tecate that was running 65hp.
You dont have to have specail pistons if you have the right rod length. More than likely the pistons pin point is the same on the 650 as it is on the 700 they just are using a shorter rod on the 700. If you buy a 700 crank more than likely it will come with rods. Then when you oder the pistons you'll have to explain to the builder that you are running a longer stroke and want a stock compression piston. The big bore with the stock compression piston would probably run a hair under 11:1 ratio. I have built quite a few stroker motors in cars and know what goes with what and so forth. I also built a stroker tecate back a few years ago. I used a kx cylinder for the power valves and newer design and had a tecate big bore 300 sleeve put in it. The KX runs a longer stroke so i used the crank and rod out of an 87 KX since it would bolt right into the cases. When i was done i had a banshee smoking 330cc tecate that was running 65hp.
#17
02-15-2003, 11:24 AM
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blew the crank
Your right,I'll have to see if the rods come with the crank.And you bring up a good point maby rods are cheaper then custom pistons,good call.that sounds like a bad a** tecate I love thoes things I think they were the best 2-stroke made I would love to find one and restore it.thanks again for the info you have been very helpful....later
#18
02-15-2003, 11:31 AM
blew the crank
Yah i miss the tecate but with how hard it is to get parts if i had another one i would just have to polish her up and stick her in a glass case as a collectors item. LOL
Keep us informed on what you come up with. I have been thinking about building the same thing. Either that or buying a 700. Later!
Keep us informed on what you come up with. I have been thinking about building the same thing. Either that or buying a 700. Later!
#19
02-15-2003, 04:27 PM
blew the crank
Nyroc,
A stroker is good idea the only problem is oil delivery for a stroker most chevy strokers in the past have had problems with lubrication. Not that a stroker is bad actually they are the cheapest way to update a motor and still have respectable performance. Once you stroke it and up the compression you will have the power at mid to high range not so much on the bottom. The only real solution to bottom end torque is cubic inches or CC's and mild compression for longevity. I race with guys that are large bore and high on compression and they are rebuilding after every season or every other race. Doing the math on our engines the best combo is 750cc and around the 11/1 compression ratio. I am working on a high volume oil pump one that will deliver the same pressure but 1/3 more oil this should compensate for any lack of lubrication. Also I am shooting for a CDI that will go to 12,000 rpm along with high a output oil pump should work well. The 750 kit offered from our friend 2wolfman ( LOL ), with the nickisil lining will offer better cooling parameters. Couple this big bore with nos/super charger unit would be unbeatable.
You say strokers are good and yes they are but only to a point. Nothing beets a big bore for power off the line and longevity, just my thoughts.
Mudboger,
If you go further into the stroker set up I would like to hear what you come up with. I have done a lot with my quad and there is a question of how far a person can go with a high performance utility quad. No matter what you do you still have a 700 lb. machine and it will not compete with a 300 - 400 lb. machine in the technical terrain and I don't care who you are you will get your butt kicked. I can run with my budds with their Banshees and Raptors but I can't over-take them realistically not possible. Although in a drag race with my modds they can't keep up to me.
Mind you this summer I plan on having the hottest P650 on 4 continants and after I have some fun I might sell the Green Machine just a thought. I like to see new innovations and if I can help in your decision making give me a call, have fun keep in touch.
A stroker is good idea the only problem is oil delivery for a stroker most chevy strokers in the past have had problems with lubrication. Not that a stroker is bad actually they are the cheapest way to update a motor and still have respectable performance. Once you stroke it and up the compression you will have the power at mid to high range not so much on the bottom. The only real solution to bottom end torque is cubic inches or CC's and mild compression for longevity. I race with guys that are large bore and high on compression and they are rebuilding after every season or every other race. Doing the math on our engines the best combo is 750cc and around the 11/1 compression ratio. I am working on a high volume oil pump one that will deliver the same pressure but 1/3 more oil this should compensate for any lack of lubrication. Also I am shooting for a CDI that will go to 12,000 rpm along with high a output oil pump should work well. The 750 kit offered from our friend 2wolfman ( LOL ), with the nickisil lining will offer better cooling parameters. Couple this big bore with nos/super charger unit would be unbeatable.
You say strokers are good and yes they are but only to a point. Nothing beets a big bore for power off the line and longevity, just my thoughts.
Mudboger,
If you go further into the stroker set up I would like to hear what you come up with. I have done a lot with my quad and there is a question of how far a person can go with a high performance utility quad. No matter what you do you still have a 700 lb. machine and it will not compete with a 300 - 400 lb. machine in the technical terrain and I don't care who you are you will get your butt kicked. I can run with my budds with their Banshees and Raptors but I can't over-take them realistically not possible. Although in a drag race with my modds they can't keep up to me.
Mind you this summer I plan on having the hottest P650 on 4 continants and after I have some fun I might sell the Green Machine just a thought. I like to see new innovations and if I can help in your decision making give me a call, have fun keep in touch.
