Hi ya'all,let me try to do something here on my lunch break.To Gary, yea hey,the police and the two DNR guys I help out are nowhere near being up to date on laws(what laws?)regarding atv's and dirt bikes.I get hasseled sometimes.I can tell you that one estimate says there are aproximately 7 million atv's out there right now and that this was a tripling in numbers from 1993 to 2001.Anti-atv groups said that during that time the number of injuries more than doubled,but failed to note the increase of atv's in use.What most people don't know is this - that due to the Consent Decree w/ the Consumer Product Safety Comission (CPSC) back in 1988,3-wheel units were banned,age restrictions were imposed,safety info. was put on the units as well as in the owner's manual,and a atv safety public awareness campaign was begun.The greatest thing about it was that a free of charge nationwide rider-training program to new atv buyers was started.Today, well after the Decree has expired (1998), OEM's are voluntarily still complying w/ and improving upon the Decree's spirit.The sad fact here in W.VA. is that because we have no one telling us what we're allowed or not allowed to do, some of us w/ big character defects do things w/ atv's and dirt bikes,etc., that are unsafe, illegal, stupid, or all of the above.Some of us are out of control, some of us just need some edjumikashon, and most of us just need to realize that common sense for one person ain't the same in another person.You can see this even in academia, where learned people make the same mistakes in judgement as anyone else.It's usually pride, ego, those types of things.We have to be educated, trained, and be willing to help each other out.

 

Allright, hey Sourmash, first I don't want your friends in the WVATVA to think I'm being disrespectful,I'm just practicing some critical thinking skills.Glad to hear members have been to the floor.I've read the history of H/MC and you're right, there are some somewhat strange bedfellows among the players.The group should begin dialogue with these people to learn what it is they want - what they're up to to see if we can work things out.Too many times we treat our foes as if they're unreachable when truth is most people are just having varying opinion on stuff either party may or may not be fully informed about. That's why we Meetings, right?But while it's vital to know your history, it's equally important to not focus on personalities and to stay as far up on the leading edge of stuff going on.Rook WVA and Gary said it - The main battle is now.Rook WVA nailed it when he says - why aren't they looking to other states and nat'l. organizations - like the Nat'l. Off-Highway Vehicle Conservation Council,Inc. (NOHVCC), to get their proven insight?Well, for one thing, state legislatures and city councils rarely ever do.They feel the need to be seen as the go-to people for everything that comes down their pike.Many times they'll seek outside consult; usually when it's all too clear they'll be seen as dropping the ball in front of everybody.That's harsh, and maybe overboard, but seemed like a good thought at the moment.Anyway, right now is the start-over point in the legislature - for them and for us.

 

Hey RookWVA,I'll be going down soon for a few.You're just a hour ride away so yea, we should go riding.My new place is 7 miles up 92, a little before the turn-off for Blue Bend.My mom's side of the family is from WSS; the parents have passed on but the kin remain.We have a old family farm up Tuckahoe Rd. - it's from one of those land grants by old King George (James?).Holler at me in e-mail: cliffy2e@yahoo.com to get my numbers here and up 92.
PS - I just got the quad and as yet it's unproven to me in the woods for a regular ride.It seems to not need much, but the guy before me just used it for very short hunting trips.I've got the new sprockets,oil and filter, plugs,etc., but I'm worried about the front brake.He said he put new shoes up there, but they can't be bled.When I get there, there should be a new mast. cyl. diaphram waiting for me in the mailbox, but I'll have to install it and see what I get.If I don't have all my brakes, then I'll be on the dirt bike.

 

I used to go swimming at Blue Bend all the time! My uncle has a camp just a bit down Blue Bend Rd.....on the other side of Anthony Creek. You're up in the Alvon/Big Draft area right?

I'll shoot an email your way and we'll try to hook up for some riding.

 

Hey RookWVA,My place is on 92 right before Alvon and just before the Wades' old Shell gas station/store (they closed down).The farm, called the Old White Farm, is up Tuckahoe Rd. out of WSS 3 miles.Do you remember the big spring coming out beside the road on the Blue Bend Rd.?I'm leaving this afternoon to go down there but I'll only be in for 3 to 4 days max.I just got the new place and I'm painting ceilings,working on the quad,working on the farm,all that stuff.But I will be riding some too, so if you or anybody else wants to hook up,e-mail me at cliffy2e@yahoo.com before I leave - which I guess will be around 3pm.

 

I remember Wade's and the spring....I'd love to ride this weekend but I have a wedding to attend....I'll certainly be hollerin at ya sometime though!!!

jamiev_03@yahoo.com

 

From what I've been able to gather (and believe me, this problem is rampant among the entire atving community) is that you have a very hard time getting any club or association administrator..........to PUBLICLY just stand up and tell the world what they are fighting for!

These people are all constantly crying about how they all need our support in fighting for what they believe in..........yet very few of them are willing to simply just come out and inform us all IN DETAIL what exactly it is that they are fighting for !!!
How do you expect someone to send you in some membership money............. when everything you are supposedly fighting for in Charleston is shrouded in secrecy? (we have a large atv club in Michigan who has tried to pull the same crap.........the result?......quiet desperation in obtaining new members and even "founding" members telling the administration and their "gate-keeper" web owner...... that they have gotten enough of their money for the manner in which they have been treated).

You've got the Hatfield McCoy system down there working their asses off to build one of the finest public trail systems that this country has ever seen...........AND YOU DO NOT HAVE ONE RIDING CLUB THAT IS PUBLICLY SUPPORTING THEIR EFFORTS (Leff Moore, lobbyist for ATV manufacturers through the West Virginia Recreational Vehicle Association might beg to differ........but I don't see ANY group or association listed on the H/M website under "people we appreciate".............).

I'm sorry, but whatever happens to West Virginian's right to ride in that state will be a direct result of these club's refusal to inform the general public in regards to what they believe in (which will also always cloud their 'legitimacy' in the eyes of those they meet with in a legislative setting).

If you don't have the ***** to just come out and say WHY your club isn't out there proudly associating yourselves with the H/M system?.......then don't sit there and "cry" when your private areas get shut down and the H/M system takes over for the sake of law, safety and order.

The problem is, these guys don't want "the H/M system" to exclusively obtain the road easements which would allow "system towns"(and those surrounding them) to prosper. Any road riding on the rural roads I have witnessed in W.V. would definitely need to be highly regulated.......heck, the road "shoulder" standard (which we use up here in Michigan when we fix older roads) couldn't even be applied to 75% or more of the side roads down there.........which forces an atv to be ridden (basically) in an "un-passable" manner.

These "no pay to play" guys also know darn well that the best chance for law enforcement to nail them on their way to "non-H/M trails" will always be on the way to and at these road entrances.......if they can get down the road to these points?........their chances for recreating in any manner they so choose (without fear of regulation or apprehension)....... is pretty much assured. (and life goes on as before).

Pick a West Virginia atv club and ask them to display what they believe in on their web site (especially how they believe the "H/M v.s. non-H/M" issue should be rectified)..........and then just sit back and observe the "fireworks" a legitimate question such as this can spark with these people! (who, by the way, are some of the finest Americans you'll ever meet........bar none......I just don't think that some of them are thinking this all through in terms of what is best for their state "in the long run"....).

 

BB, chill out,man.ATV clubs in this state are into riding and having fun at it.Most people around here don't write letters to the papers or their gov't. officials and worse yet don't vote.It's just the culture here.One day we'll catch up, but we like it rough here in the wild.It's true sometimes we're being walked all over, but some of us make the effort.We'll be crapped on to a degree, I'm sure.But don't underestimate our legislature.They're West Virginians, and they know how fiercely independent their constituency is.I'm proud of the way they fight the moneyed bottom-feeding lobbyists sometimes.All politicians aren't bad, and all OHV'ers aren't lazy about their priveledges.You're wrong about secrecy, as well.The state legislature's meetings are open to all, though I certainly wish the state newspapers would keep up with the story.They cry like hell and blame machinery for deaths when they occur, and never seem to delve into the reasons why it happens.One of our organizations, the WVATA, are (mostly) new to this freedom fighting thing and so are not to be harassed about a lack of finesse - efforts would be another story.I'm guessing they're doing the best they can with who they've got.We do desperately need a media campaign to get out a message.Another thing is, one must seperate H/M from the state.H/M is a business, plain and simple.They're about money.Those trail-related businesses that answer all your e-mails and forum/bulletin board/message board posts there are about it too.THEY are the ones whose voices are most noticeably silent - the voices that should be the loudest right now - as they stand to make profit regardless of the outcome of the proceedings.If they want to have good-will from us (and isn't it about that relationship with the rider that they're in business?) why don't they help go to bat for us?Because guess what, they don't want any more paperwork, they just want your money.They don't want to have to check registrations, file reports w/ the state DMV, collect moneys, etc. that regulation will bring.Some of these businesses realize the need to nurture a customer, and some don't.No matter what comes out of Charleston, ATV's are still selling very well and the out-of state adventurers will continue to pour in as national publications continue to brag about our H/M system.Look, not everybody's a Dr. King.Most of us are hillbilly's that enjoy our freedoms as they are (or were), and don't enjoy having to deal with politicians.We're only perhaps just now realizing that, damn, here's something that's going to affect little ol' me.Maybe I'll surf over to the State's web site and look this bill up - is what I'm hoping for here, and to stir the mind.I appreciate your call to action.Much of what you said is right on.We're not very progressive yet.It's a different kind of place here.Erudite, motivated freedom fighter atv'ers are just about a whole new idea 'round here.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: Tuckahoe
"BB, chill out,man.ATV clubs in this state are into riding and having fun at it....."

Sure can relate to that.........We've got a club up here in Michigan (the biggest) whose members have absolutely no desrire to pursue anything 'but' those two ideals. The problem being, is that not a one of them are willing to take an interest in what goes on "day-to-day" regarding the issues which affect them. These guys are sitting back right now and helping their president make sure that no member of the general public attends their quarterly club meetings......which is the only time "the wizard" steps back from behind his curtain with any "inkling" of what in the hell has been going on for the past 4 months. Sorrry, but I am not 'impressed' with clubs who don't hold their leaders accountable.

"......Most people around here don't write letters to the papers or their gov't. officials and worse yet don't vote.It's just the culture here......."

I'm sorry, Tuck.........but that excuse may have "flew" back in the early to mid-20th century when this country truned its focus to that area and literally pumped BILLIONS of dollars into it................but in 2003?.........I would be ashamed to admit such a thing and certainly wouldn't let another child be born into that same "culture" without fighting it every step of the way.

"......One day we'll catch up, but we like it rough here in the wild.........."

What does "rough" and "wild" have to do with breaking a cycle of ignorance that is killing your children's chances of building a life there through their involvement in government (and I'm not referring to getting the next "Robert Byrd" elected to keep that big pork barrell machine rolling along).

".....It's true sometimes we're being walked all over, but some of us make the effort.We'll be crapped on to a degree, I'm sure...."

I don't think West Virginians in 2003 are being "crapped on" at all. Sure, the people who worked the mines and other industries were treated unfairly up to a point.......but how is this country supposed to "compensate" West Virginians beyond giving your state the largest amount of federal dollars (per capita) in the history of this country? Does anybody believe that Byrd got all those projects approved because "the rest of the country" was receiving them also?
You have to remember that nobody knows "welfare" like a Michigander.........we've been watching "Detroit" go down the tubes for generations upon generations and these guys have always claimed to be 'crapped on' also..........
Again, "sorry"; but I'm not buying it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

".....But don't underestimate our legislature.They're West Virginians, and they know how fiercely independent their constituency is........."

I never said anything about unerestimating your legislature........yet if you claim their constituency to be 'fiercely independent'...........what do you propose beyond the long arm of the law, stiff fines and common-sense safety measures to ensure that this "independence" extends to "no argument" issues such as safety and trespassing?

".....I'm proud of the way they fight the moneyed bottom-feeding lobbyists sometimes........."

I am also.........there are some people out there (clubs?) who are fighting AGAINST the concept of pay-to-play, no trespassing and all the basic safety tenants which ensure the "next" generation isn't taught the same bad habits that their parents might have passed down. Let's make sure your atv clubs make us all aware of EXACTLY WHAT IT IS they are fighting for......... so that we don't include them on your list above.

".....One of our organizations, the WVATA, are (mostly) new to this freedom fighting thing and so aren't to be harassed about a lack of finesse - efforts would be another story.I'm guessing they're doing the best they can with who they've got......."

Harassed about a lack of finesse?......Heck, tuck..........we'd just like them to give us an idea of WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN..........so that they could possibly do 'better' with "more"!!!. Does the motto: "You cannot legislate responsibility" DO IT for you? I can think of a lot of irresponsible behavior that darn well needs to be legislated against.........and when the fine/impoundment gets handed down for 'ignoring' that responsibility?.....GUESS WHAT!.......responsibility was just proven to be "legislatable"!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

".....Another thing is, one must seperate H/M from the state.H/M is a business, plain and simple.They're about money....."

They are a business that is responsible for bringing to W.V. the biggest butt-load of tourists this state has seen since the first one floated down the Gauley........let's get that straight and not forget it.

".....Those trail-related businesses that answer all your e-mails and forum/bulletin board/message board posts there are about it too.THEY are the ones whose voices are most noticeably silent - the voices that should be the loudest right now - as they stand to make profit regardless of the outcome of the proceedings....."

O.K. Tuck, let's take a good example and talk about "Pinnacle Creek".........these people have been out there making good money off of riders who don't pay a thing and don't follow any rules (per say). As you said, why aren't these business owners over there encouraging their customers to get on board and help the H/M system "build" the very system they've been riding all these years for "free"? (or would these owners mentioning that they are "glad" that these people will now be following some rules and paying for the privelege.........not be "all that good" for their business?).

As I've mentioned before, there are too many people in W.V. trying to play "both sides" of the fence. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

"...If they want to have good-will from us..........."

Let's stop a minute here, Tuck; because I think that this statement alone tells me a lot.........who is "us"???????????

".....(and isn't it about that relationship with the rider that they're in business?) why don't they help go to bat for us?........."

Again, who is "us"!!!!!

A native West Virginian who doesn't care about "following rules" or "paying-to-play"?????

".....Because guess what, they don't want any more paperwork, they just want your money.They don't want to have to check registrations, file reports w/ the state DMV, collect moneys, etc. that regulation will bring......"

Why would (should) "business owners" have to do any more than they do right now within the current set-up of the H/M system? What are they "avoiding" by promoting a system that already has regulations in place which serve them quite well? What have they "refused to do' in regards to any new legislation? Who is currently disseminating more information about riding opportunities in this state AND NOT BEING "SHY" IN REGARDS TO VOICING THEIR BELIEFS ON SAFETY AND TRESPASSING ISSUES?

I realize that with all the handouts from the federal government; maybe the population of W.V. has become somewhat "liberal" in their viewpoints regarding the small (or large) businessman........"news flash"!..........these people are in business TO MAKE MONEY......... and by all accounts have been doing a pretty damn good job taking care of their customers while in the process of doing it.

You want these people to "help go to bat for us"....
Two questions:
#1) Have they ever refused to do so and do they even know who "us" is...
and (most importantly)
#2) Do they have any idea what "us" is fighting for......so they can be assured that this platform in no way conflicts with what they believe in?(which is what "I've" been trying to find out for myself for almost two years now).

".....Some of these businesses realize the need to nurture a customer, and some don't......"

I don't really understand what you would like these people to do. You show up at these places, they treat you right and you leave.
Do you think they should somehow treat "native" West Virginians any different than some guy from Michigan? They would like customers who will follow the rules and who don't wander off the trail system......simple as that.......and they should somehow be 'villified" for this?

".......Look, not everybody's a Dr. King.Most of us are hillbilly's that enjoy our freedoms as they are (or were), and don't enjoy having to deal with politicians....."

I appreciate the fact that you folks would just as soon be left alone.........yet as you admitted........the floodgates are turned full open. Where you all had previously treated the mountains with respect and kept your ridership to mostly a "local" crowd.........you now have thousands of people from all over the WORLD descending on W.V.; your local riders are doing a ****-poor job of policing themselves (which we are ALL guilty of) on the non H/M trails...... and kids don't seem to be learning a whole lot from their parents about safely riding one of the most dangerous areas in this country.

Hope I didn't come down too hard with my remarks; as I really appreciate meeting someone who seems to "get" some of the problems your state faces.

I just think it's a darn shame that nobody seemingly wants to bring these problems out here "in the light" where we can all share and fight for what we want passed down to our grandkids in W.V.

And isn't it not so much about what "we" can ride today...............but about what "they" have a chance to enjoy tomorrow?

Let's all get on board with what the H/M system is trying to accomplish or, darn it!, come right out and tell us all about how you (the clubs) think it could be done better.

There are too many people out there who don't think that insurance liabilities and get-hurt lawsuits are forcing the formation of the H/M and the closing of these private lands........they would just as soon blame the landowners or "the government" and not "THEMSELVES" for failing to form their own regional, club-sponsored (even 'private') areas before this point in time.

I hate to have to be the one who breaks it to y'all..........but it just might be too late for you to form and take care of riding areas which separate "you" from "us".........just please thank God that the H/M system gave us BOTH a place to ride together. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Well,BB, You sorta sound like a shareholder for H/M.There's a dissimilitude here that can't be bridged, I'm afraid.We are who we are, for better or worse.It would be nice to hear from the few clubs proposing to care that they had heard from you; I feel they're who you should be writing to, besides the legislators,media, etc., in addition to random message boards..Look around this board - don't see any West Virginians who're responding to it, do you?No, I'm sure you can direct that intensity to where it belongs.Much of your rant is logical, but you're up to fever pitch.Bring it on, baby, just take it to the House. They're at: http://www.legis.state.wv.us/.