QUOTE*Regarding ruts, trails and stagnant water, it is not an irrelevant complaint. These types of scars to the natural landscape are accelerated ten fold when just five or six ATVs traverse the same trail twice in one day. The damage done by ATVs is incomparable to a deer trail that may be three or four inches wide after six months use by two or three deer.END OF QUOTE*

Exactly what the hell do you expect Off Road enthusiasts to do,not ride anywhere?Look at the BIG PICTURE here with the economic inpact that ORVing has for the communities that allow riding in their area. In Michigan,we have folks that DEPEND on ATVers and dirtbike riders to come to their area's to help support their local economy by riding in their area[motels,fuel,food,jobs, ect]..Start bitching about a few scars that Off road folks leave on the land,and pal,you've just shut down alot of the funds that flow into their city that help keep that city afloat in the first place..

There are millions of acres of land for a variety of Off road adventures,keeping folks on the right trail is essential for proper management of the land..But to sit here and tell me how important my rutts are to the overall developement of the forest,and how much damage is caused by stagnant water from my ATV being on a designated ORV trail,is alot of BS IMO.

What the hell,logging trucks leave more rutts in a day than 10 ATVers can leave in a week,beside's,I dont think the local economy is going to build a department store anytime soon over my rutts on a designated trail.

Your complaint only fuels the tree huggers aganda's.

Bill

 

What may appear to be a scar to some, may be a wonderful trail to others. I think we are on the same page, but look at it from different views.

From my perspective, I want properly constructed trail systems to be built and maintained. In many parts of the country, we are paying for them with license fees etc.. so we have every right to demand that the funds generated should be used to improve trail conditions.

With that, I also want people educated to the potential damage their machines can cause if they stray off those properly built trail systems. The education portion would show a certain due dilligence, and it shows the environmentalists that we are sensative to their complaints.

The biggest problem is that although in many cases the ATV industry is bending over backwards to attempt to address their concerns, the Envirnmental groups are consistantly refusing to see our side, or consider a compromise. They have been asked to help in designing more earth friendly systems, but in their arrogance, they refuse to even show up to the table. It is hard to have a dialog when one side refuses to show up....

I think the majority of ATV riders are sensative to the issues, and realize that we need to keep on top of them, or we will find ourselves in deep trouble. I admit there are those that don't feel rules or responsible acts apply to them.. but they are a small minority, and policy/laws should be, and are written to address the majority. The problem is that the environmental lobby would like to reverse that.

The point here is that instead of pointing fingers at the different groups of riders in an attempt to split our sport.. we should refuse to be baited into an argument that only serves the enviro army... which I now believe may have been the intent of this thread in the first place.

It didn't work... and I am glad to see that the majority has managed to see through the smoke screen.

 

I love people who don't read entire threads and then post. Ignorance is their bliss that allows them to essentially spew forth their ideas like puke through a megaphone. It's very messy.

First, trails carved in swamps are going to heal. They are constantly changing because of their wet nature. That's why they're called wetlands. I have some on my property, and a trail there never lasts more than a month or two.

Second, I am not proposing shutting down ride areas. As Dragginbutt put it, I am all in favor of marked, well-groomed trails, which responsible people stay on. If you've ever ridden a trail system that is used for a poker run, like the old Cochranton Run or today's Rumble on the Ridge, you would see the damage done to the environment.

I am not advocating closing these trails down. I love trails as much as you do. What I hate is obvious trails where people leave their litter, or blatently ride off the trail and do unecessary damage. Money into trail systems is a good
thing.
What I am advocating is responsibility and respect. Do not trespass to ride. PAY to ride at places. It's good for the our reputation, the environment and people who own these places.
By the way, Bill, if you had read my posts you would have seen I am simply playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of argument. Relax, dude. Seeing both sides is of an argument is part of being educated, and education is knowledge, which is key.

 

I know all about ATV--Dirtbike education,im a licensed DNR Off Road Vehicle safety instructor here in Michigan and am also the Director of one of the larger ORV safety associations in Michigan.

 

well muddy we would like to hear your serious opnion on this subject.

 

I beleive that 95% of Off Road enthusiasts are very responsable operators and do the proper thing when out on the trails..I do not beleive that the forest lands that WE pay for thru our own tax dollars,needs to be shut down because of a FEW indescriminate ORV users.The greenies will lead the un-informed public to beleive that ANYONE riding ANY type of motorized off road vehicle is no good for the forest lands.This is just bad public relations IMO..The greenies make up false reports in regards to injury statistics ect,in an attempt to achieve land closers,and many times,will WIN..

Instead of land closers,we need to beef-up law enforcement on the trails..We dont need to spend 25 bucks an hour to pay some Department of Natural Resource officer to patrol these trails either..In my town,we have specialized [non officers] who write parking tickets to violators,they make 8-10 bucks an hr..Each State could put together a special task force of these same type of trail enforcement officials who's job is to inform riders and when needed,write tickets for violations..

Education is a must..I would make it mandidtory that ALL ORV users,regardless of age,should be forced to take a safety course from a PROPERLY licensed ORV safety Instructor at least once and than every 10 yrs thereafter.In Michigan,we have over 300 ORV safety Instructors,and maybe 45 of them are properly trained..A WELL INFORMED ORV user,usually makes for a well behaved operator..

Every Highway throughout the entire world has a few drivers that dont follow the laws of the roadway..I dont see any highways being closed down because of a few of these idiots,instead,when they are caught,they are FINED heavily..The samething should apply to our trail system IMO..

 

Well I think the obvious one is being missed here. A lot of people go out and buy the most aggresive tire they can when something fairly low impact tire like holeshots would suffice. But I also don't see the trails as being a scar either. I know raptor is just playing devil's advocate, but that's really how the devil feels. It's just a few irresponsible riders really. Next thing ya know they'll want to fix those big black hidious scars, the ones with white and yellow stripes!!!! I don't think these envirodweebs do their research properly. It's just like with politicians, if you want to find something bad about someone you can. Then just spread it around to smear the individual or group (atv, dirtbikes,etc) add some lies and exagerations and you've got quite a following.

 

well sparky in regards to aggressive tires i have noticed that by having bigger more aggressive tires when i am driving in wetter area's in alot of instances the bigger tires will float and carry on top of the ground and people with stock tires will be sitting there stuck or spinning it down to get through a certain area therefore rutting it up where you can't see where i went. i know that big tires get a bad rep because some people get them just so they can go rip the land up but if used responsible they are more environmentally friendly.

 

Most States allow the use of a farm implemented tractor on their County roadways as long as it has the diamond shaped farm sign visable from the rear,many pickup trucks run aggressive tires on these same roadways as well..Look at the damage these tires could cause to the roadways they come into contact with..When damage occurs,the road commission sends out a worker to fill the holes up,no big deal here..

If trails were managed correctly by those that are familier with trail maintenace,the few agressive tires you do see on the trailway could be readily repaired,as needed too..I dont blame aggressive tires for our errosion of trails,I blame poor management for the DNR and forest service..

 

An issue which pertains somewhat to this has to do with what we call an "event trail" here in Michigan.
Motorcyclists would bust a new trail through the woods; have a weekend event there and then (supposedly) "close the trail down again forever" when they were done.
The DNR finally realized that this was beyond the realm of reasonable thinking not only because of the environmental damage left behind; but for the fact that ANY sign of a motorized vehicle going anywhere opens the floodgates for everybody else. This is not an issue of what impact that original trail made or how quickly it recovered....it is an issue that many of you have brought up here previously in regards to how <u>not</u> staying on the trail leads to obvious temptation by others.

The other (less talked about) issue here is exactly WHO is fighting for and against this.
We had so many motorcyclists ("out of the blue" of course) show up for these discussions regarding the elimination of these event trails; you would have thought they had just banned the two-wheeler all together. Yet these arrogant snobs weren't fighting for the entire light 4 and 2 wheeled drive community to bust these things out, have fun and explore new areas on any given day...it was just yet another forum for our motorcycle community to point out what they see as the stark difference between us and them.

Since the sales of 4 wheeled machines began to dwarf the purchase of two-wheelers many years ago, these people have done their damnest to <u>divide</u> this community while constantly (usually behind closed doors) pointing out the "difference" in our environmental impact over theirs. Here in Michigan, this has resulted in absolutely no modern maintenance equipment to handle over 3,000 miles of trails; an attitude that "woops" are a <u>good</u> thing that slow down atvers while allowing motorcycles to pass and, more importantly, allowed a motorcycle 'majority' (in this state) to declare that atvs have raped even the designated trail system (the same system that they have succesfully succeeded in keeping mechanized maintenance machinery off ) to the point where trails should be closed for "studies" that guage just how long it takes for these trails to "recover".

What they don't like to talk about is the fact that this 'differentiation'....this "look how fast our trails revover v.s. 'theirs'....has further fractured this community; resulting in not only new trails within our system being proposed as "motorcycle only"; barriers being erected in front of previously accessible trails and "no comment" on what any actual "multi-use" mix should be in the future....but a feeling that these guys would climb in bed with any environmentalist in a heartbeat (and talk us down all day long) if there was something in it for <u>them</u>.

I believe you need look no further than what the AMA has done in making the ATVA their little red-headed step-child over the years to observe just why this disconnect is happening with these mainly <u>older</u> two-wheeled enthusiasts. Many of them falt-out hate atvs with a passion, believe it is their god-given right to ride exclusive trails built strictly for themselves and that (somehow) we should be further subdividing this motorized community into trails handling quads, utility vehicles, full sized trucks and (of course!) trails that they and ONLY they will ever experience (all the while demanding that they darn well be allowed to ride every one of the others).

ides the motorcyclists) complain about one group or the other. I had never, before witnessing this phenomena, believed that one motorized group would actually hop in bed with our enemies in even non-declared opposition against us. But if you don't think that many of these guys (at least in Michigan) wouldn't sell this sport which is desperately in need of unification down the road over trail impact issues?.....you are flat out kidding yourself and that's a shame.

I you don't "believe" any of this....ask me why one simple question has caused more people to shup up, stare down/shuffle their feet or outright inspire fire-breathing hatred in all that were asked it...
....."hey, why aren't we all working <u>together</u> on this"???