Muddy- What happened to the thread at ATV Offroad that showed 19 members who did not support the 60 in. trail width? The poll showed 16 members who did support the widening of trails and 3 who didn't care. How can a club with only 38 responders to their poll, (open to their members only) figure they speak for all of us? Now the thread has been pulled after Chuck told Dana to take care of it. I smell something! The club talks of 900 forum users, but doesn't care what the MAJORITY really thinks. The baby boomers comprise the largest population segment and many of us are approaching retirement age. How many of the people my age are going to be able to ride dirt bikes many more years, but would appreciate the use of 60 in. trails for SAFER riding. If someone has a medical emergency on a 24 in. or 50 in. trail it is real diffucult to get medical treatment. A 60 in. trail system could facilitate treatment and removal for an injured person and allows for more room for rider error for younger or less experienced riders.

 

Steve,
the first thing you can do is get INVOLVED. Far to many ATVers are just sitting by the wayside and dont know what to do because the cyclist been running the trail show for so darn many yrs now. Fact is, the ATVers been sitting on their hoofs for way to long. There is an ORV Advisory board that you can get yourself involved in.The next meeting will not be until May 10th at 6:30 pm in Lansing,Michigan. The second thing you can do is to speak your mind in our OPEN forum. You will need to go to ATVOFFROAD.NET and sign up. This costs you nothing since you already have Internet access. You also want to write letters/call to YOUR legislators with your concerns.And do NOT forget that ALL youth under the age of 16 must be ORV certified BEFORE operating ANY type of ORV and must always be under the direct visual supervision of an adult while operating,this INCLUDES private property. My association does a comprehensive ORV safety class for all ages. If you need more info about these certification classes,you can e-mail me at haynez2@aol.com

BIGSAM,
I dont know WHY the thread was moved at our site. I do know that in order to VOTE at our site,you must be a member. I dont agree or disagree with this. I feel as a PAYING ORV user who spends their 16.25 on an ORV sticker,you guys ought to have rights to vote on certain issues like trail widths WITHOUT being a MEMBER of the club. You ride the trail and pay to use it, you should be able to make a vote on its width.If I were YOU, I would start up a thread in regards to this very question at our site.

Be careful what you say about trail widths with the cyclists. One piece of ammunition you will CONSTANTLY see them make is that a wider trail is UNSAFE because speeds usually increase when the size of the trail width increases. DONT fall for this BS. Its nothing more than a smoke screen to keep the trails as they currently are.

 

It was moved to the Bar & Grill forum which is dedicated to ATV politics. Nobody is hiding squat here (or there).
16 for, 20 against, 3 didn't care.
http://www.atvoffroad.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2322

Ooh, I know - let's now debate if their informal, member's only, poll is statistically relevant!

 

Just a comment on the width issue that I fully support you one Muddy. I know the cyclist attitude is that they will be more dangerous because people will go faster... Well, let me say this about that....

First of all, a trail is benign, whether it is 24 inches, 50 inches, or 60. It is the person who is twisting that throttle that controls the speed, not the other way around. Wider trails are no more dangerous than narrow ones. Fix the person problem, and don't blame the trail... That one is pretty logical if youthink about it.

A very loud argument can be made concerning wider being safer... but I can't fathom it the other way around.

Second bullet in their argument is the fact that you have to ask for whom? Wider is definately better for quads, and RUV's. SO it gets back to elitism from the Cycle crowd again.

Lastly, our loudest argument is that a multi use trail system just plain makes more fiscal sense in today's tight budget environments. How anyone can argue against that is beyond me.

And just for people's information, I recommend any ATV owner in MI that is a member of the AMA to first COMPLAIN LOUDLY, COMPLAIN OFTEN, and CANCEL your membership. They certainly are not doing us any favors.

The bottom line here is that we want more trails, we want equal access to cyclists on any NEW trail built, and we want them wider and we believe SAFER for ATV riders, so that we can make this a FAMILY activity, not something for guys living in the past who refuse to admit that times have changed, and who want things to be like they were long ago.

If they had maintained the trails they had, there would be no reason for new MC trails to be developed in the first place. You can't put the blame for rutted and mud holed trails on the backs of the ATV folks... if you knew there was a problem, why didn't they help develop a solution?

 

Steve, the secret is involvement. Both on a local scale with your firneds, and taking your thoughts to your elected officials. Le them know that the MMRC does nto speak for you, nor does the AMA it seems. Let them know that you support multi use trails, and want to see a standard established that will support all rider groups, not just one group or another. Lastly, teach your children to be responsible riders, and educate them to what is happening with the various groups.

As for not having places to ride locally, it is something that is happening all over the country. One thing we do here in Virginia, is join riding clubs that have already acquired land to ride on... Here in VA, that is about the only way you can ride without travelling for 5 or 6 hours to get to decent trails. It is a fact of life for us here. Even more reason to start that letter writing campaign to let the electorate know how the average voting citizen feels. Not just a bunch of self proclaimed experts who claim to represent the industry, when in fact they are only interested in their own riding, and couldn't care less about family style fun in a safe environement.

And please, laugh as loud as you can when they claim wider is more dangerous...

 

So, since your maintaining your trails, I suppose there is no need for any new ATV trails, and this whole discussion is null and void? Do you wish to ride the same exact trail for the next 30 years? I surely do not, and If I were to pay a users fee, Id be dang upset if new trails werent being created, In moderation of course.

Secondly, You most certainly can put the blame of rutted and mud holed trails on the back of ATV folks.
Motorcycles dont create 3 foot deep 4 foot wide mudholes. I dont think anyone understands the seriousness of this abuse, Its Rampant on every single trail system I have been on. Yes, they can be fixed, maintained, rerouted, etcc. But after a short time, its all tore up again. Big Mud tires and Lift kits are marketed aggresively to folks who buy the new biggest and best ATV. Many are sitting on the showroom floor now days with "bigfoot" kits on them.

 

2TRAKR-Just checked again, the Bar and Grill Forum is missing !

 

Well said and very very true. Now how do we fix that person problem? How have you fixed it, how have other areas fixed it? What is reasonable?


Another interesting point. Of course the AMA is putting together & enabling many ATV closed course competition events here in Michigan, which seem to be pretty popular by their attendance numbers. I guess those must mean nothing and should be thrown out with the bathwater too?

Way of the mark on this one. The Gladwin loop, for example, is down to 12 miles of trail from 54 miles due to rutted out mudholes that were not created by cycles. At the same time responsible ATV riders didn't cause this either, it was the irresponsible folk who don't know or don't care to know better. Yet we are all suffering because of it.

 

Then you must be referring some other thread then, the one I linked too is still there. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

2TRAKR- The forum must have been moved into a members only site. I guess the other 860 other people viewing your site don't want to know about the 19 members of your club that are against widening the trail system. I only hope you are not telling legislators and DNR officials your club's position represents a large number of people!