If you think the investigating agencies in this country have nothing better to do and so much free time to watch you, then you need to wise up a little. Abuses of power occur at every level of every institution, private sector included. Best you can do is weed out the ones that do. I know a lot of folks in the aforementioned agencies, and I can tell you without a doubt they don't care what you ate for breakfast or when you took a dump unless your a threat to this country or it's people. Why don't we go back to the Clinton days when it was illegal to the CIA to operate sources with violent criminal histories, that worked out well didn't it. Who in the heck are you going to get information from your local preist?!?! During the revolutionary war citizens of this country gladly offered their land and possesions to the army for the cause of victory. Last time I looked there wasn't a platoon in my backyard, consider yourself lucky you live now and where you live now. It's the greatest country in the world and doesn't ask a whole hell of a lot from you.

God bless you and the Red, White and Blue!

 

Interesting that the patriot act continues to be brought up again and again.

One of the major flaws in that act that seems to be forgotten here is the loss of civil rights to all american citizens. You can ignore what is in front of you (as so many do anyhow) but you can not ignore or brush away the very fact that you have had your right to indictment, a speedy trial, and a host of others taken away from you.

Sure go ahead and continue to believe these things are only for suspected or proven terrorists, but I hope you dont have a damn stroke the day you wake up to the truth and it hits you personally or someone in your family that this has, is, and will continue to effect Americans and others that have absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. If the law was being used exclusively for its original supposed intent then I dont think it would be having such large problems being passed again, and its the obvious missuse that is causing all the problems.

In addition the fact that some are mislead by the acts of corporations gathering info in a manner that should also be watched or controlled does not change the fact that there is an obvious different motivation and intent than what is being discussed here. You can not compare a retailer gathering info to improve inventory or a credit company using buying habbits to adjust their ratings or extending credit to the actions of the various govt agencies since 9/11.

I cant be accurate in the actual number but I am have seen reports on more than one person filing suit against the govt for various violations of their civil liberties.

Its been quoted before but here goes again "absolute power, corrupts absolutely" and its not a joke or buzz phrase either and we would all be better off to pay close attention.

 

I hear you, and understand what your saying, but wouldnt it be ironic if say 30 years from now someone was to quote your post in explaining how things were allowed to go so wrong, and that false patriotism towards a govt should never be confused with true patriots who honor and love their country!!!

A side thought I had was how in the past the govt didnt seize or steal citizens land just to pander to a developer or other political contributor and actually used the laws of immenent domain only for the bettering of all the local citizens. Things have changed, and not all for the good either.

 

I think one of the important things the conservatives miss, is that someday the power will turn around, and be democrat.

Maybe even Hillery, could be president. I dont think its posible, but theres no way to know.

How would they feel if she were in office, and had unlimited , unchecked power. How would the anti abortionists feel if they were spied on? How about NRA members, being spied on? Or people for the right to ride your atvs. They could just target their opponents, all in secret, with no recourse. None of us would like that.

The old saying, what goes around..comes around, is true here. You know they would retailate.

 

i didn't see your thread so here we go...hope you find this. im not necessarily staying in one place for very long. im going to be moving around quite a bit from about raleigh eastward to the coast. but thanks for the info thats good to know theres going to be alot of good folks there. im excited to go there! most everyone i've talked to says its a really nice place. i can't think of anymore questions right now but maybe later.

hondabuster! once again! whats the deal on the sig man?

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: BloodyRomance
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.


One of the means, of controlling a population, is to use imaginary fears, and magicly proclaim you have the only solution.

Parents do it to kids...governments do it to the people. Currently, this is the trump card this administration holds and plays it every time the attention is directed their way. Unfortunetly, its very effective, and im just trying to raise awaremess, to whats being played on us.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: hondabuster
Very astute. Falsely inciting fear creates a blind flock of sheep prepared to follow the sheppard in any direction, including over a financial cliff.

 

Frankly, if the government doesn't have immediate unlimited access to potential terrorists and their activities, then how does anyone suggest we stop terrorism? I hear a lot of whining about taking away our rights, but how about some good ideas on how to prevent these scumbags from bombing us or whatever they want to do? If our national security is at stake, and the price we have to pay is government being able to access info, then so be it. I would love to hear how you would explain to your wife that you opposed the Patriot Act in its current form and then your daughter or son was blow up by a terrorist plot that was undiscovered because the NSA couldn't get intelligence on the scumbags that made it happen...

There is a price to pay for freedom, and if that price is to allow a government access to my life, then fine. I don't have anything to hide. I DO have a problem with the guy next door making bombs, and if the feds can't be sure about it because they need permission from some judge to watch the guy and see if he's up to no good, what's the point of having any security forces at all? Smart terrorists will be on the move, changing plans and tactics, moving responsibilties to other terrorists and so forth. They need to avoid being seen. Our guys need all the help they can get in order to hang every one of these scumbag cowards before they kill more of us.

Remember, the NSA wasn't wire tapping Grandma Kettle talking to her Bingo friends. The are after suspected criminals. What burns me most is that this same stuff was done under Clinton's tenure and we don't hear anyone complaining about that...

Why are people so paranoid about allowing the gov to do this stuff? You get watched when you drive by cops, you get watched by cameras at 7-11 and stores all over the place, you have surveillance on you in casinos in just about every place you go. Why? To catch the bad guys and keep people safe.

There is also a deterrent factor here. If the bad guys know they are being watched, then they can't operate as well. Isn't that the whole idea? Lastly, as far as the scare tactics, it seems that it is being used to scare people into thinking that under Bush, your rights are being taken away. Hmmm. I feel safe with him there, but I wouldn't under Billery. Heck, she'd give the terrorists a free nights stay at the White House...

 

This is BS ya'all... There is no way that the internet or any other electronic means can be regulated, or controlled. To even think the government can't do what it is doing is plain dumb. And why not? Every credit card company on the planet has access.

All the Patriot act did was put focus on what has been going on forever. So big deal. It was a way for the administration and it's chronies to falsely make the American public think they were doing something. That is a crock. Just another reason for the opposition to stand up and yell on a street corner loud enough so that they can get the public all worked up and effect their vote.

Go back to sleep, and worry about more important things like how do we influence local lawmakers to build more trail systems...

 

Here's a post I offered during a debate on US strategy in a political forum. I'm not seeking an argument with your opinion, this isn't the venue, just pointing out the poor odds of email and telephone call surveillance ever uncovering a major plot against the US:

~While conventional data processing funding transfers and traditional telephone/Internet communication have been curtailed by a massive concentration of resources (including a loss of US civil liberties), those measures have had little effect on Al Qaeda's operational funding or communications. For centuries Asia and the ME have used money changers as a means of wealth transfer between geographically separated exchanges, building reputations of confidentiality strengthened by not only tribal cultures, but in the case of Pakistan (a traditional center for money exchange) what Westerners would call the underworld. Death to extended families for default is difficult to pacify with a witness protection plan. Communications from Bin Laden (or other extremist organizations) to the next level of are also handled on a personal courier basis (thanks to the publicity of satellite tracking), with one-time scrambled sat telephones taking over from there, cell phones from there, all on a local basis.

Then there's the issue of cell structure within the organization itself. With two levels being the absolute depth of communication, money and information, penetration faces an almost impossible barrier. This isn't a situation of money determining loyalty as was common during cold war spy games and current disclosure of state secrets, we're back to extended families and cultural retaliation against those families for ratting someone out. How does one place an agent in such an organization where there's nowhere to go and certain, unpleasant death to dozens if not hundreds of family members for disloyalty?

Al Qaeda has stated its mission as financially breaking the US to eliminate US ME presence and foreign policy (support of Israel and the Sauds). There is no defined time frame. There is displayed patience. The US is now spending 25%+ of annual budget on military expenses, on a deficit basis. In an internal transaction, credit driven consumer economy with abnormal payment imbalance, even the optimist has to realize that can't endlessly continue. We're playing their game.

I've not included US conventional or quick strike specialty military as I don't see the ability to escalate use of those resources to eliminate extremists without risking full war in the ME. Iraq is keeping us well occupied with bad global PR.

In deference to moderation request, I won't comment on US leadership policy.~