Not to change the subject, but is there really a middle class anymore? I remember something about there being only the poor, the working poor and the rich [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Also as I was reading your replly I was starting to wonder what "good people" make in your area? I was finding (actually from another thread here, "buy american") that some business owners and even workers seemed to have a misconception of what sucess was, and also what good people are actually worth.

Now I know earnings do very across the country, as well as the cost of living, but in this area I wouldnt consider anyone doing less than 150K gross total family income annual as truely being any part of the middle class, and it honestly seems that one needs to top the 500k mark to be considered above the middle class.

I am not asking you or anyone to disclose their income, but instead to just compare how our fathers or grand fathers lived and their quality of life to our own. Things are not always as they appear. and what was once truely the middle class is not the same as what its thought to be today.

Lastly should anyone read into the fact that you have a business to run, and are not needing a social program from the govt to survive, and are also a republican?

Does make sense too.

 

Middle class is conventionally defined as a family income of $25k through $100k (USD), generally by those who wish to be considered middle-classed, about 60% of the population. That's basic poverty level up to the top 5% of incomes, the 'middle'. Many who study this subject are in agreement that the US has been steadily moving towards a two-tier class system since the middle-late 1970s as redistribution of wealth dramatically changed with US industrial inability to compete on a global scale, turning the US from an industrial power to service economy and creditor to debtor nation. About 90% of US wealth is now held by 5% of the population, certainly something to think about when tax breaks are offered to stimulate the economy.

Using only income to define middle class status is now flawed when combined with US economic decline resulting in inflation prompted by abnormal debt and subsequent USD devaluation. Prior to our current direction, middle class included reasonable home ownership equity, ability to furnish a college education to family children, reserves (savings) for one year of interrupted earnings and the ability to save for a retirement status near employed level income, all without government assistance, real estate bubble or debt.

For all practical purposes, the general middle class has evolved from 'The American Dream' to a point where living paycheck to paycheck dominates that lifestyle. With continued fiscally irresponsible leadership, that trend will continue as value added industry jobs succumb to service industry wage and benefit levels.

 

440ex,

My business does well because I make it do well. I interact with people who are already successful and I diversify within my industry like crazy. I own a construction company as you probably know and part of my market is wealthy custom home buyers, I do some of my work for a developer who specializes in single family dwellings and I do some work for another developer that specializes in investment property. I also do consulting for contract rates which each of these segments makes up around 20 - 30% of my income. I could lose half of this and still maintain my current lifestyle. I am not wealthy by any means but our combined income does fall between $150k and $200k. I live in a $225k house and drive a Deisel pickup..... my wife drives a Hyundai which she loves. Ok, now that you have a picture of my life, let me tell you how I got here. I started at $4.25 per hour working for a construction company when I was 18. I shoveled gravel 12 hrs per day to make a living. In two years I was doing carpentry and was around $10.50 per hour. I landed a job by a fluke as a coordinator for a remodeling division. No one else applied so the guy hired me and took a chance. I was overwhelmed and out of my league so I hit the books. I talked to everyone I knew because I wanted to know how to succeed. I did all right. I lasted two years and figured out how to make them profitable before a personality conflict that was unresolvable helped me decide to open my own remodeling company. I did that for a few years just making a living. I then got an offer to manage a construction division for a developer who was building a new kind of house. I took it and was completely overwhelmed by the huge dollars and small margins. I hit the books again and talked to everyone I knew all over again because I wanted to succeed at this job. I made almost nothing, less than I did working for myself but I wanted to move to the next step and this was the road to take. After almost 5 years in that position the company had taken off and I grew from $30k per year to $70k because I convinced the owner to give me 10% ownership in his company after the first year, then the profitability and high volume of my division gave me that pay raise. I then went out on my own with the developer's consent and now I build houses for him independently among the other things I do. I currently have over $1 million dollars in construction loans that I am personally signing for and just enough asset base to cover it. I have tremendous risk especially considering how high the realestate market is. I won't be in trouble when it declines but I will take a temporary pay cut. It doesn't matter though, based on what I have learned, I can transfer my ability to make someone profitable into any industry so no one can take my success away from me except me. I will just take my skills and transfer them to something that I can make money at if construction goes bad. Btw, that is an important attitude for success.

Here is my point. There will be people who will always look at me and say I am rich and out of touch because I am in the top 15% of wage earners. What they don't take the time to look at is how hard I have worked to get here and how much risk and stress I have undergone. I had conservative values when I was 18 and I used them to get here. What I mean is, I didn't become a conservative after I started paying so much in taxes. I was one when I was making $10k per year. Btw, I pay almost $4k per month in taxes!

If I had waited for the government to set me up, I would be in a totally different place right now. I will give you a hint as to the keys of success. It is unfair but true that success is found in who you know more than it is in what you know. The good news is you have a great deal of control over who you know. Clean up and start asking questions of those who are already successful. They will take the time because they like to talk about their own success. Next, look at you boss as a partner. Change your mindset from him being the guy that orders you around to the guy who has knowledge you want to posses. Become interested in making him look successful. Never ever burn bridges. Everyone you come in contact with will come back around at some point in your life. You want them rooting for you not trying to get back at you. Make commitments and keep them! That should have been the first one. Focus on accomplishing more in the time you have to work rather than trying to look busy until time to go home, etc. etc.

Sorry to hyjack your thread but this is real life stuff from a regular guy and I wish this was what was being taught to our kids. The things I just mentioned build a strong economy and a strong society. Waiting for social programs when you are fully able to function will make a weak economy and a weak society. Never believe someone who says you need help to succeed, or that the successful were just lucky and they had advantages over you. I don't have a college degree. My family had far less than I do. Every last one of you that is reading this thread is capable of creating opportunity and benefitting greatly from it.

I yield the floor....

Ron

 

Gonna give everyone a break and not quote all of the two posts above [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Georged was that what I was trying to say [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Now this is where I believe this new sub subject kind of does play into our main subject as all of what both Georged and myself were saying is real, is happening right up until today, and is eating away at the quality of life and overall worth of every single one of us in the 90% column (including those who bust their **** everyday, as well as those who just sit on it, and all of these no matter if their totally succussful or not), and it has taken place under both republican, and democratic administrations, and their times of majority in congress, and the senate etc.

Its pretty much the same issue as or cause for concern when any attempts are made to limit, or remove our civil rights, as there really are reasons, purpose or agenda's driving all of the decisions over the last 30+ years made by both party members across the board.

Its the same thing that is currently driving the democrats to raise holy hell over the NSA, as well as their apparently not being able to make a stand on the whole issue other than slinging anything they can at the current administration, but never openly having an issue with any potential offenses against american citizens, and its also part of why there has not been any actions by either party to deal with the long list of problems their parties have caused financially for the majority of americans, or the various watering downs of our rights by the patriot act , and countless others etc etc etc

If I have not lost everyone already I am sure you have to be asking what is he up to this time, and yes what is "IT" already. Well it is greed, power, control, and the intentional weakening of the middle class and the american public in general.

If you are now asking why, and have not figured it out already, you are going to have to try and forget all your party affiliations, and much of what you have thought about politics, and economics and try to honestly open your mind and see just who, and what benefits from a weakened middle class (also formally known as the working class) with less ability to purchase, create reserves, generate wealth, and basically finance much beyond their own living expenses.

Its really not that extreme, and since our whole political system (especially contributions, and lobbying) is currently so lopsided to favor large business and the wealthiest people across the globe to only further the destruction of the working/middle class it becomes easy to see those who are benefiting from the mess we have today.

DSNUT/Ron

I appreciate your sharing your story with us (I do mean that) and its nice to see when someones hard work, and better thinking does pay off.

I also can empathise with your story as I have one not all that much different in a couple different industries etc, but with as many if not more similarities than differences.

While reading it I had a couple thoughts that I wanted to share. First was that around here you would be looking at using all of your building skills on a fixer upper or tear down for the numbers you mentioned, and I am sure your living much better than someone with a similar income in other areas, but as great as that is (and it does sound good lol considering your location) I am sure you would have been even better off as a whole if the whole scenerio was to have happened 20-30 years sooner.

Like yourself I have had greatly different incomes during my working life (some years even paid more taxes than I made total in others), and there truely is no better way than being a owner in some way, but even though there is still the ability to earn more as a partner/owner etc than a employee both options are being squeezed big time.

With housing costs continuing to climb, and most all cost indexes rising combined with an almost unnoticable rise in wages (I do debate this one as it seems flawed) most of the entire middle class is seeing hard times (living check to check is way too popular, and lets not even get into the legal loan sharks who run the credit card industry).

Is it any better for the millions of small business owners across the country? I have to think the higher typical income levels help things a bit, but as any small bus owner knows there being taxed to death by ever increasing taxes, pushed into lower margins by corporate competition, giving up a large portion of the bottom line profits (where the owners $$$ come from) to the rising costs of employee benefits, and also the normal increases that all of working america is seeing.

To me at least it is like all of this including the NSA intel issues and potential civil liberty violations of the patriot act, the increased military and anti terrorism spending, the socio-economic changes and redistribution of wealth, the weakening of the middle/working class, the ever growing size of our govt, its spending in general, the ever widening trade deficits, and most every single problem discussed here in this thread can be linked to, attributed to, or specifically traced back to the problems with both political parties and the growing powers of them combined with the interests and agreements with their largest contributors.

I was told at a very young age (well before I could seriously appreciate it) that in order to understand what was the real cause of something or to see what someone or thing was honestly meaning behind all the "fancy words" was to follow the money. If you follow the money on any and all of these issues it seems to always lead back to the same few causes, the republican and democrats, and the largest political contributors (mostly big corps and insanely wealthy families, and oversea countries and corps).

Who is benefiting from increased imports, and decreased blue collar or middle class wages, the war in Iraq, the war in the next chosen place, increased consumer costs for inferior products, watered down civil liberties, increased govt, increased govt spending, and the list goes on and on and friggin on, but not in one instance is the largest amount of americans the ones benefiting from any of it.

The funny thing to me is with all the recent talk in this thread about scape goats, strawmen and the like that we all honestly believe in some way that the current issues are in any way about US the american people, and are still debating in any way based on a preference of either political party.

Are we all nuts????????

 

Oh boy have i known people who that would mean something totally different [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

I stopped counting all the able people I have met who put more effort into "working" the system instead of making it work etc.

Some were extremely wealthy too.

 

440ex,

You are gracious in how you are conducting this thread. That is rare..........well done.

I understand where you are coming from and the problems you state are very real. However I do have a problem with the whole tone that seems to be emminating mostly from the left and some from the riduculous Republicans in Congress (remember I am a Conservative at heart. I am only a Republican because right now they are the only party of influence that is even close to my values). The tone is of perpetual negativity. We are all smart enough to see many of the bad things or trends going on around us. I think positive thinking is what made this country great and I think we all need to exercise it more. You know, one of the first things they teach you in beginning motorcycle riding classes is to look where you are going. If you look at the exit of the corner, you will exit safely. If you look at the tree on the side of the road..........you will run right into the tree.

I shouldn't have to explain that analogy. The types of problems you are referring to have been going on in politics since before the US was established. When one thing gets too far out of check, the people rise up and fix it. People have faught their whole political career against an issue they were so terrified by, in the end, when the time was right the American people made the adjustments and would have with or without the activists.

I want people to be happy. When they are happy, they are productive. This is not a slam on any individual here but I mean this. Focus on the good and what you can do to improve your life and share it with society. Don't go around feeling like we are spiraling into a black whole for which there is no recovery. We will make mistakes as a nation. We will recover from those mistakes. Life is too short to wake up miserable because you don't like what is happening politically or you are frightened about what is going on economically or politically.

Quick summary, if you focus on all the stuff you don't like, it has a high likelyhood of happening to you.........if not in reality, if you worry about it too much, it is happening to you psychologically. Instead, use your energies to improve your quality of life in your current circumstances, enjoy the good things you have and then show other people how to build a life that is as happy as yours. If people all over the country approached problems this way, the economy would not be a concern. Most political problems would seem trivial and it would have an effect on the type of politicians we get running for office. An effect for the better. When was the last time you heard a news organization or a political party focusing on all the good things that are happening. That is a much bigger problem to me than any of this other stuff. Find the cure, don't treat the symptoms.

Relax, take a breath and think about only positive things for a few seconds. You'll feel better.

Ron

 

Just don't believe anything you hear and you'll be right most of the time. The media picks what's news, and too often what they pick to tell us is not news at all. It just fits their liberal agenda. It looks like we have a case in point here.

Jimmy Carter was pobably one of the worst presidents in our history, but he always seemed like a decent guy to me. Then he stands up at Coretta Scott King's funeral and uses that platform to attack WB for domesitic spying. Back when he was president, the media would have let that slide. Today, some news outlets were quick to point out that Carter was ordering the same types of wiretaps when he was president. That was public record, as documented by convictions of two men on spying charges after being caught with the help of what the media today call "illegal wiretaps."

Then, there were the wiretaps of Martin Luther King's phone that had been ordered by JFK. I remember reading about it at the time, but it was no big deal like WB's wiretaps.

I read where Lincoln even tapped the telegraph wires during the civil war.

So, it's not really news that a president orders questionable wiretaps in the name of national security. You are hearing so much about it today only because it fits the media's liberal agenda.

 

Ever review media ownership? Familiar with the business side of how advertising revenue drives editorial policy? Ownership of advertisers who provide that revenue to facilitate media policy? Traditional conservative and liberal beliefs regarding civil liberties? Using tired, erroneous slogans such as the liberal media prompts those questions.

 

Georged,

You can't win an argument about the bias of the old media. They give passes to all but the most egregious Democrat crimes, yet they swarm around around Republicans and try to destroy them over accidents or mistakes and crimes worthy of being covered.

They have only reported the bad news out of Iraq by and large. They ignore or make sure there is another story at the top of the page when historical elections are held. They always air or print military personel who oppose the war but hardly show how overwhelmingly the troops support what they are doing. etc., etc.

From mainstream America's point of view the old media is biased and, again, the proof is in their advertising revenue. They are slowely going broke. Ratings are declining for them which means they are much more expensive to operate than their audience can justify. The new media, on the other hand which is by and large conservative is thriving and growing. The only reason can be that most Americans relate to and trust the new media so they watch and listen to them..........

The reason you don't think the mainstream media is liberal is because you happen to be more liberal than they are. Perspective defines this relative nature. You are far enough to the left that you don't think the media is biased and you think Republicans are extreme. If you follow your own counsel and follow the money, the right conclusion would be that mainstream America is more conservative because it is their money that is not going to the old media and it is that same money that is paying for the new media.

The conservative talk shows, blogs and Fox News does not need wealthy contributors to carry most of their overhead. They have advertisers tripping over themselves to get a slot because the audience is so huge. Liberal talk network is on the verge of bankruptcy constantly. The only thing that bails them out is rich special interest contributors.

You attempt to say conservative rhetoric is tired but it is the liberal agenda that is tired. It is not resonating with people anymore. It is negative, people want to hear the positive things to.

Ron

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: georged

You sound like the Iranian cab driver who told me the Jews own the news media in this country. In reality, with few exceptions, corporations own the media. I can tell you from first hand experience that you don't see the board of directors in the newsroom.

Advertising does drive news content in a way. Companies buy advertising only if your newscasts or publications are attracting a lot of people. You do that only if you have credibility. You can't just report that Jimmy Carter attacked WB and have people find out later that you failed to mention that Jimmy had done the same thing. (Actually, the hypocrisy was a bigger story, but that got hardly any coverage.) In recent years, the mass media have suffered tremendous loss of credibility. I read where the New York Times' circulation has dropped 40 percent. The Dan Rather and Newsweek scandals are probably just the tip of an iceberg.

"Erroneous slogan"? That's what many in the media want you to believe.