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Government to sell public land...hope its not our riding areas

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  #11  
Old 03-15-2006 | 04:56 PM
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Default Government to sell public land...hope its not our riding areas


Hey guys guess what when you sell off some unused public land it goes INTO THE TAX BASE ,yes then the land is part of a system to help pay for schools and roads , so from my .02 its a 2 for 1 sale good for every body .
 
  #12  
Old 03-15-2006 | 05:58 PM
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Default Government to sell public land...hope its not our riding areas

How is privatizing public assets a good thing? Do you think the new owners are going to allow atvs? Its always a bad idea...for any business to sell assets to pay for operating expenses.
Once the land no longer belongs to the public, its gone forever, somethings are more valuable left alone.
Besides ...the groups which were slated to buy the land, will pay NO taxes, due to exploring rights and write offs. Its just another blantant plan by the administration to sell off public assets for private gain.
 
  #13  
Old 03-15-2006 | 11:26 PM
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Default Government to sell public land...hope its not our riding areas

How is privatizing public assets a good thing? Do you think the new owners are going to allow atvs?
Do they allow you to ride ATVs on any of the parcels now? I knew about this proposal a few weeks before it hit the "news" media, and checked out all the parcels in my region. None of them would have any affect on existing Forest system trails or roads. They were all small, isolated parcels. Some currently have no public access, and basically are private preserves for the private landowners who surround the small FS parcels and lock everyone else out.

Apparently, you're from Minnesota. All the parcels (most of which are 40 acres or so each) for that state are on 3 Ranger Districts of the Superior NF. I checked several of the listed parcels on the Gunflint RD Travel Map. They don't affect any designated route.

You can do this yourself by checking the list of proposed parcels at:

http://www.fs.fed.us/land/staff/spd.html

There's other information, and maps that show the proposed parcels for some Forests available from:

http://www.fs.fed.us/land/staff/rural_schools.shtml

Then get the Travel Maps for affected Ranger Districts from:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/supe...on/atv_trails/

These Travel Maps have the PLSS grid and section numbers, so you can check the parcels and see for yourself.

Another note... if there are existing system roads/trails that cross a parcel, they probably will be listed as a valid existing rights-of-way on the title, especially if someone comments to that effect, rather than just reciting the trendy "Bush is selling off our crown jewels" drivel.

Its always a bad idea...for any business to sell assets to pay for operating expenses.
The proceeds from these proposed parcels will not pay for Forest Service operating expenses.

Once the land no longer belongs to the public, its gone forever, somethings are more valuable left alone. Besides ...the groups which were slated to buy the land, will pay NO taxes, due to exploring rights and write offs.
How could there be groups already "slated" to buy these proposed parcels when the final list hasn't even been compiled and none of them have been placed on the block (for sealed bid) yet?

Its just another blantant plan by the administration to sell off public assets for private gain.
It's not for private gain. It's for rural schools that no longer get any income from National Forest timber sales because environmentalists have virtually eliminated timber sales on our National Forests.

Another option would be to allow sustainable timber sales to resume on some of these Forests. This will prevent those areas from becoming designated Wilderness, which prohibits all motorized and mechanized vehicles. That's a win for the schools and trail-based recreation -- those logging roads can become designated trails.

The greatest thing about the internet is access to Government documents. Too bad there's so much misinformation regarding public lands in the newspapers. The facts are out there, just takes a little work.


 
  #14  
Old 03-16-2006 | 04:05 AM
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Default Government to sell public land...hope its not our riding areas

It would do hondabuster well to review the actions and intentions of the "western law makers". In this part of the world we do not strip mine, clear cuts are very few and far between and you cannot subdivide public land. Years ago the West went through a very long process to determine the sustainable levels of harvest on the public lands. This is a volume of timber cut well known and published. The elimination of timber harvest has nothing to do with that level and is simply caused by political power and a USFS totally unable to fill its role as a manager of public lands. Funding for use by road departments and schools was tied to timber harvest because it was and could still be a steady flow of receipts into the counties.
Other comments about "unused areas" and "return to tax base" in most cases are incorrect assumptions. With farm and ranch deferrals available, non profit status of some entities, and a tax based on timber removal only almost insures that revenue to local economies is very small or nonexistant.
Would we allow the federal government to step in and sell our car, our back portch, our front yard or our back yard to meet their obligations? I think not, even the income tax was supposed to be only a temporary thing.
Consider also that neither the Republican nor the Democrat lawmakers originated this land sale idea. This was originated by the Department of Agriculture, USFS, in an attempt to secure funding dollars for themselves more than any noble effort to support schools or roads. Even their own numbers indicate that at best 18% of any funds generated would possibly find their way back to the counties involved. 82% administration and overhead is a fairly high cost of doing business. If this sale is allowed for even the most wonderful of reasons be assured it is only the first step in authorizing the sale of public lands and possessions to sustain the USDA,USFS.
Our local district ranger has indicated "its in the federal register" for comment...............That is a tool used for so many things to obtain quasi legality for processes that cannot stand the light of day or public scrutiny. "Put it in the register, no-one looks there".
Deanz400 and xFreebirdx should not be so quick to condone a process that accomplishes little or none of what the USDA claims. Sometimes it is too easy to accept an easy fix particularly when it is mostly in someone elses back yard................Tass
 
  #15  
Old 03-16-2006 | 04:01 PM
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Default Government to sell public land...hope its not our riding areas


So Tass how would you help support Rural school systems that have no tax base ? Because all the tree huggers have shut down logging in most of these areas , I just would like to hear your fix for a busted system that the local people did nothing to bring apon themselves ,....
 
  #16  
Old 03-16-2006 | 09:57 PM
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Default Government to sell public land...hope its not our riding areas

Originally posted by: deanz400
So Tass how would you help support Rural school systems that have no tax base ? Because all the tree huggers have shut down logging in most of these areas , I just would like to hear your fix for a busted system that the local people did nothing to bring apon themselves ,....
How far would $8-billion go? That's a month of our reported Iraq costs. How our thieves, I mean politicians use our tax money quite often has no concern for local people. So we get refocused on other issues, like selling our land to meet government expenses.

The US Census Bureau forecasts a US population of 1.8-billion by the end of this century. That's six times our current population. I realize being concerned about the future, especially that far out, is no longer a required consideration because we're being protected, but those of you who say we have plenty to sell, isolated, no roads, etc., might want to give your great-grandchildren some consideration. Once its gone, that's it.

And once the government finds any revenue source it uses it up to the last drop. Once precedent is established, public approval, it becomes a simple matter of tacking a rider on a legislative bill for funds for rural education allowing for XX of budget deficits to also be covered by land sales. Multiply the population where you live by six and see how things look for public land.

Any of we old-timers can tell endless stories of places where we hunted big game, camped and got away from regular people to pursue our interests now covered by population expansion, and that was private land. Selling public land will eventually provide ATVers with those same tales.


 
  #17  
Old 03-17-2006 | 12:09 AM
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Default Government to sell public land...hope its not our riding areas

The schools in Oregon have an excellent tax base. The dollars from timber revenue are only a small part. The problem with the school issues and funding them is two fold....neither of which has anything to do with the selling of public land not can they be solved with the public land sale...............The state school system and state government in general have built themselves a tremendous income and retirement system. The first portion of the fix is to bring public employees and their retirements, and the inflated budgets of the state school system into some sort of sustainable, affordable economic system with a realistic budget....
The second part is a realistic examination of the funding system for the public schools. Understand that the income from the national forests was 25% of the harvest value, this was then split equally between county roads and schools....the majority of the funding for schools is directly out of the taxes collected from the citizens of the state.
Unless budgets are balanced with available income there can be no fix.
The selling of public land will for the most part only provide administrative funding for the agencies selling the ground and a one time cash hit for the counties that will only be a band-aid for the real problems. The USDA/USFS needs to find some other means to support itself than the sale of public land, its not theirs to sell, it will solve no real issues, it will only limit further the opportunities for sustainable management of public land. In truth I doubt the legislators or voters in Oregon will do nothing to eliminate the real issues until the system collapses of its own weight. At this point most seem to be running in little circles attempting to pour more money into a system that needs reform first.....Tass
 
  #18  
Old 03-17-2006 | 01:08 AM
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Default Government to sell public land...hope its not our riding areas

Originally posted by: deanz400
So Tass how would you help support Rural school systems that have no tax base ? Because all the tree huggers have shut down logging in most of these areas , I just would like to hear your fix for a busted system that the local people did nothing to bring apon themselves ,....
If I was a politician I would tell you that we could steal it from the SS fund, the general fund, the fed trails fund, state registration fund for atv's and snowmobile trails (dont laugh NY was or still is considering this for covering their budget gap) or any other of a number of funds filled with our money from various hidden taxes.

Personally I have a very different take on this. If you have an area (say a county) that only has so many ratables then you take the amount of those $$$ and add them to the total amounts avail thru various state and federal programs (there are lots of opportunities to fund education beyond local taxing) and then go at it. If its 200,000 or 20,000,000 it doesnt matter just make your programs fit within the budget avail just like all us working slobs have to.

Now as far as selling govt owned land I have to say I think it SUKS from absolutely any direction you look at it from. I know its going to be a problem for those who use the land like atv riders etc, but its also a kick in the **** for all americans because its poor management of our natural resources, and once its gone, its gone forever.

I do agree with the earlier post that there most likely isnt any real plan to sell anything, and its just a political play. Problem I have with that is that both the republicans and democraps have so obviously put their party before everything else including the future of the american citizen and even our entire country that they have lost the respect and potential votes of anyone with the ability to see their arrogance towards us all.
 
  #19  
Old 03-17-2006 | 01:35 AM
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Default Government to sell public land...hope its not our riding areas

Originally posted by: Tass
The schools in Oregon have an excellent tax base. The dollars from timber revenue are only a small part. The problem with the school issues and funding them is two fold....neither of which has anything to do with the selling of public land not can they be solved with the public land sale...............The state school system and state government in general have built themselves a tremendous income and retirement system. The first portion of the fix is to bring public employees and their retirements, and the inflated budgets of the state school system into some sort of sustainable, affordable economic system with a realistic budget....
The second part is a realistic examination of the funding system for the public schools. Understand that the income from the national forests was 25% of the harvest value, this was then split equally between county roads and schools....the majority of the funding for schools is directly out of the taxes collected from the citizens of the state.
Unless budgets are balanced with available income there can be no fix.
The selling of public land will for the most part only provide administrative funding for the agencies selling the ground and a one time cash hit for the counties that will only be a band-aid for the real problems. The USDA/USFS needs to find some other means to support itself than the sale of public land, its not theirs to sell, it will solve no real issues, it will only limit further the opportunities for sustainable management of public land. In truth I doubt the legislators or voters in Oregon will do nothing to eliminate the real issues until the system collapses of its own weight. At this point most seem to be running in little circles attempting to pour more money into a system that needs reform first.....Tass
Are you talking about fiscal responsibility? Can the words even be spoken in the same sentence as politician without it being the puch line of a joke?

There is a serious education problem across the entire country, and locally here its a completely unbelievable mess. I know some states have used a sales tax increase to help pay for the costs, and others have specific areas (like you describe) that help out, but how its done here in the corruption capitial of the country is very interesting because you have no way to avoid it, and that by funding education mainly on a county basis thru property taxes.

Now I know funding it that way provides a steady flow of income that will only rise over time, and unlike a sales tax that can be effected by various things like the economy or unemployment etc people will be paying their property taxes, and even when they are misfortunate enough to lose their property the taxes survive and will be due from the new owner. Its a win win were screwed situation, but it does keep the couifers full and our people employed in the system livin large.

Only real problem is that it also creates a situation where property taxes are insane, and I mean really out there as in the lower taxed portions of the state you would be looking at around 4,000 and in the higher ones well over 10,000 and I am estimating on a normal 2000 sq ft 3-4 bed house, and if its larger and in the right neighborhood taxes of 15,000 - 20,000 or more are common.

I guess the underlying problem is that the teaching or education industry is one of the few that are actually growing in this country, and also one of the few with increasing union members, and therefore it is producing much needed better paying and bene's positions (in a shrinking "good" job market) while its reinforcing some of the strongest remaining unions around.

I wouldnt deny anyone the ability to have a steady, reliable, well compensated, position with great benefits and an excelent retirement plan, but I can also see all the problems being created in this single growing industry compared to the typical private industry position that has to deal with pressures like cost cutting, competition, etc and has downsized just about everything it could including employee benefits. These issues are not even present in the public education business and thats what is part of the problem since the funding for education comes from the working class tax payers who are seeing decreases while having to buck up additional tax dollars to fund the increases in public education.

There is plenty more like growing the education industry by turning a 4year degree to the egual of a hs diploma of the past (you older guys know what I mean) and jobs that used to accept a HS education being forced (by several forces including what is coming out of our HS today) to require a BA or above.

Its very similar to the problems being discussed in the other threads (buy american, and pentagon spying on americans) as the cause of the problems go back many years, and the economic conditions created over the last 20-30 by our politicians of both parties are also to blame.

 
  #20  
Old 03-17-2006 | 09:13 AM
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Default Government to sell public land...hope its not our riding areas

Hang on hondabuster, I am about to get silly.....................Fiscal responsibility.........................There, I said it............................
We have such uncontrolled government spending that all the real efforts are toward getting more revenue, in any way possible................deanz400 was absolutely right in an earlier post..........what is the solution to an issue the working man did not create?......................The only real answer is to go back to "government of the people, by the people, for the people". Just how the hell do we do that? Certainly not by allowing Federal government to sell of public assets.
Our local countygovernment, in all its collective wisdom, took over a failing golf course..........yup, thats what I said. The golf course was failing badly and was owned by a city government...........yup, thats what I said..............Now, a state agency has told the county that the county must pay back the money the state agency loaned them to bail out the city that had already lost its *** trying to run the golf course............ yup............almost like TV soaps. The working man did not do it, the working man WILL HAVE TO PAY FOR IT. I think I will save the fact the county government also indebted the county tax payers by purchasing a small railroad line that was going broke for a later post.
Fiscal responsibility, government of the people, local control........................what novel concepts..............Tass
 


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