<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
And the student does NOT get FREE training thru the ASI safety course UNLESS the new ATV they purchased meets the AGE/CC guidelines for the student riding it. So if you purchased a new 250cc ATV, and your 12-15 yr old needs training, you would have to not only have the instructor make sure he has a 90cc loaner available for your kid, you would also wind up PAYING for this kids training.</end quote></div>

Actually in California all youths 6-16 (I've also seen it written as under-16) receive training for free. Training is subsidized by the state.

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Actually in California all youths 6-16 (I've also seen it written as under-16) receive training for free. Training is subsidized by the state--END OF QUOTE*

Cali may have FREE TRAINING, but I dont believe for a second that it is performed thru the ATV Safety Institute.

And ''IF'' training is performed by the ASI ???---I GAUREENTEE you that the instructors are NOT allowed to go outside of the AGE/CC recommendations set forth by the CPSC. The end result is FAR less kids get trained thru an ASI safety course.

When I did the ASI safety courses here in Michigan, I actually QUITE doing the ASI safety course for youth under 16 [sent them to another ASI instructor] because of the AGE/CC restrictions, and recommended that they take the State safety course instead.

 

This is from my personal experience from the ASI safety course I took about 2 years ago. Of course, when I bought myself a brand new atv, the salesman said the course was free, and I'd get 100 bucks. I can't see how anyone, no matter how much skill they think they might have, would turn down a 100 bucks. Plus, I figured it wouldn't hurt to see how well I actually would do.

Anyway, show up for the test. Supposed to be 12 people in the class. Apparently 11 other people didn't need the money.

Class was informative and I was glad I went. The 100 bucks wasn't a bad incentive, but I would recommend it to anyone. Surprised to see how many things I just took for granted could actually use a little tweaking.

Only bad part of the class were the vehicles they used. I just got a brand new KFX400, and they are riding Recon 250's.

Part of the course was going around a track that was about 50 long and about 30 wide, with a sharp right (or left depending on direction) at each corner.

They wanted me to get into 3rd gear on the straights. I don't know if any of the teachers there (it was a class of students getting certified as instructors) have ever been on a sport quad before.

I hit 3rd about 10 feet from the corner, and by then, I got a pretty amount of speed and momentum built up.

After about 4 times of me telling them, look, I don't think you understand the difference between my 3rd gear and how fast you may go in your 3rd gear. Finally, the head instructor just said to ignore them and only get into 2nd.

I would have to say that was the only problem I had with the class.

And I can't really say that I fault them for not knowing how all machines perform.

Sadly, the worst part was when it was over. Since I was the only one in the class, it was over fairly quickly. So, in my haste to get back to the house, I proceeded to lock my keys in my truck. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img]

 

The above is yet ANOTHER reason WHY the ASI is losing instructors.

You see, the customer who purchased the new ATV and gets the free training, NOTHING comes out of his pocket to pay for his class [a 125.00 value] ...So if an Instructor has 12 students on his class roster and only ONE student shows up, the instructor only gets paid for the one student that showed up and took the class,which is 35 bucks. Now this instructors entire day is RUINED,all for 35 bucks in earnings.

This is a HUGE problem with ASI instructors and happens all the time. Here an instructor takes off a weekend to instruct a safety class full of students, and only a few wind-up showing up. This is VERY disturbing to most ASI instructors and many have QUIT because of it.Its also against the ASI guidlines to have more than 8 ADULT students at one time in a class.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Its real simple, if your youth does not train on the correct engine size ATV for his age, he DOES not get training thru ASI.And the loaners are a JOKE at best. Instructors have to PULL THEIR HAIR OUT to get a dealership to give them a loaner ATV,so MOST ASI instructors do NOT have enough ''loaner'' ATVs to go around, IF they can even get ONE?</end quote></div>I'm not sure what a "joke" loaner is but if it is safe and operational and allows the rider to complete the safety course then it seems ok to me. Here in California there are loaners available for some but not all slots in all courses but they are available as I was able to secure two for a class next month.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Cali may have FREE TRAINING, but I dont believe for a second that it is performed thru the ATV Safety Institute.</end quote></div>IT is fact that California does offer the training course through ATV Safety Institute for kids 6-16 for FREE, irrespective of their status as owners of new/used ATVs. Here is the link to the official State document. I have no idea how you conclude FAR less kids obtain ATVSI training with this policy. I can not think of any other way to further encourage all kids 6-16 who plan/do ride a quad to take this course. For that matter, every parent who does not sign their kids up for this should think long and hard if they are doing all they can to ensure safe riding by their kids.

http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/712/files/112404.pdf


If you are an adult and purchase a new ATV you get the training for free PLUS a $100 incentive check to attend. Hard to beat that. Clearly the mfgs "get it" and know it critical that quads must be ridden safely otherwise their livelihood is subject to serious undermining.

I agree that training on a loaner which is much smaller than the quad the kid will free ride is not the best situation but I can see where they are coming from as there is a safety element to having a rider on a quad that is too large for them to handle. Where that line is drawn is a debate I will not enter. As I mentioned here earlier my recent shopping experience clearly demonstrates the dealers in California in compliance with informing the customer about the age/cc guidelines and likely not overtly sell out of the guidelines.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Unfortunately, a major contributing factor in many ATV fatalities that occur in Kentucky and West Virginia (#1 and #2 in ATV fatalities for years) is the commonplace use of "All Terrain Vehicles" as a cheap secondary means of transportation by rural families. </end quote></div>

This is not unique to these states but common practice among those in the farming, fishing, and forestry occupations. California has a huge population that lives in a few highly concentrated areas, the vast majority of the state is open and rural. Whenever I get out of town and pass farm after farm, you will always see quads in the field or cruising along a dirt farm road. fyi - You will not see them on the paved road.

It is even more alarming the problems you face in states like KY, WV, and NC as the quad death rate is astoundingly high on a per capita basis. The following link is the the Federal BLS site and provides the statistics on number of people involved in farming related industries by state (as of May 2006).

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcst.htm


State -- farming employment -- quad deaths (5 yrs)
California -- 182,520 -- 76
Kentucky -- 4,510 -- 143
North Carolina 8,270 -- 103

very VERY FRIGHTENING!

Obviously, the issue is more complex beyond atv safety training. You could offer every kid $50 bucks to attend the atvsi safety course next the the field in the local WalMart store and the figures are not going to drop significantly. But I am sure the figure will not go UP so at least is is a program that helps rather than hinders or impedes safey.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>This is a HUGE problem with ASI instructors and happens all the time. Here an instructor takes off a weekend to instruct a safety class full of students, and only a few wind-up showing up. This is VERY disturbing to most ASI instructors and many have QUIT because of it.Its also against the ASI guidlines to have more than 8 ADULT students at one time in a class.</end quote></div>

You may be right but from the atv site they are looking for instructors in a few areas. There are likely many reasons for the current need for instructors but I'm sure one of the factors for SoCal is the availability and suitability of land in those counties and affordable and adequate liability insurance.

From the atv safety site

f you'd like to be an ASI Instructor.... read on:

We're looking for a few good ATV Instructors and Training Sites in the following areas:

San Diego, California

Riverside, California

Orange County, California

Phoenix, Arizona

Cheyenne, Wyoming

Castle Rock, Colorado

Las Vegas, Nevada,

Lufkin, Texas

Okeechobee, Florida

Pompton Plains, New Jersey

If you live in one of the above areas and are interested in becoming an ASI Certified ATV Instructor, or if you know of available land we can use as a training site*, please give us a call at (800) 786-5559.

* Land must be an open, level space approximately 150' x 200' of dirt, grass, sand, or snow, free of obstacles and away from other riders.

 

Instructors are encouraged to TRY and get loaner ATVs from Dealers in their area. Under the manufacture guidlines, the manufacture will only give the dealer a 15-20% reduction on their Dealer Invoice [what the dealer pays the manufacture for the ATV] for allowing an ASI instructor to use the ATV as a loaner for a year.

When the Instructor brings back the loaner ATV after a year of having it, there WILL be SCRATCHES all over the unit and the Dealer just MIGHT break even when he sells it to a customer as a Driver Education ATV. So MOST dealers in Michigan dont want anything to do with the loaner program.

QUOTE*
I have no idea how you conclude FAR less kids obtain ATVSI training with this policy. END OF QUOTE*

Its real SIMPLE,
*Most kids are not riding an ATV according to the CPSC AGE/CC Guidlines.So unless the ASI instructor has a BOATLOAD of LOANER ATVs within the AGE/CC guidlines for kids aged 6-15years old, the kids dont get trained.

I like the way Michigan use to do it under the Dept of Education.
*If the kid PROPERLY fits the ATV [according to a properly trained Instructor] that he brings to the safety course, than the Instructor is allowed to have him train on it. FAR MORE kids get training like this than what do under the ASI safety course.

So as you can clearly see, the ASI safety course actually IMPEDES training our youth under 16 years old, vs the way Michigan use to do it.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Most kids are not riding an ATV according to the CPSC AGE/CC Guidlines.So unless the ASI instructor has a BOATLOAD of LOANER ATVs within the AGE/CC gudlines for kids aged 6-15years old, the kids dont get trained. </end quote></div>I agree with this if you have facts showing students are turned away due to lack of loaner quads. I have no way of determining this without investigating directly with the registration department at the ATV Safety Institute.

Personally, I agree it would be better if the quad the student will be riding receives training on that quad, given that it matches his physique, skill, and maturity. I don't see any reason why my son can not take the course on his own 150 automatic. However, getting free safety training on a loaner quad at a site less than 40 miles from my place inside of a month of registering is pretty darn good in my book!

edit - I did quick search for classes and there are 12 in the Dearborn area in the coming month, 15 in the Lansing in the next month, and 11 in the Grand Rapids area over the coming 3 months. That plus the fact ATVSI is not short of instructors in the Michigan area would support the position that there are sufficient classes to meet the demand in your area.

 

FYI - "You will not see them on the paved road."

ATVs being riden on paved roads is a major part of the problem in these states. In KY, WV, east TN and western NC, while prohibited or restricted by statute, very few LEO's will pull over an ATV unless they are witnessed operating in a blatantly unsafe manor. In fact, many communities in KY and WV have passed local ordinances which permit on-highway operation of ATVs and UTVs for the purpose of "recreational commerce." As such, if an ATV is pulled over for operating on a paved highway in one of these communities, all the driver has to do is state they are headed to the store for camping provisions, or gas, or anything else related to recreation if a trail runs through or near that town.

While these ordinances are good for local business, it gives the 15 year-old on the Z-400 a ready excuse for running down the road for gas. When in reality, he's merely showing off for the other kids when the sheriff's deputy isn't around. Last Sunday evening, while hauling my rescue equipment trailer from Pikeville, KY to Beckley, WV, I was passed at 45 MPH (in a 40 zone) on a 2-lane winding section of US 460 by 2 ATVs about a mile apart, between 8:30 and 9:00 PM. Both were sport models driven by teenage boys in the 15 to 18 year-old age range. About two miles up the road, I observed a group of ATVs parked outside a gas station / convience store with the riders socializing nearby.

Clearly, ATVs in this area have become today's version of the $50 clunkers we used to buy and fix up as a means of cheap transportation when we were their age. The difference is found in what happens when the 500 lb. ATV collides with the 5,000 lb. '58 Oldsmobile I used to drive.

(BTW: The '58 Olds was as old as me back then!)

 

QUOTE*
edit - I did quick search for classes and there are 12 in the Dearborn area in the coming month, 15 in the Lansing in the next month, and 11 in the Grand Rapids area over the coming 3 months. That plus the fact ATVSI is not short of instructors in the Michigan area would support the position that there are sufficient classes to meet the demand in your area--END OF QUOTE

REALLY?
THAN WHY dont you tell the above to a couple of my ASI Instructor Friends right here in Michigan. I've been told that Michigan is indeed short on ASI instructors directly from the MOUTH of a few Michigan ASI Instructors themselves in ORV Board meetings. Perhaps they are LYING just to make conversation [lol]

And IF Michigan does have ALL these upcoming ASI classes you speak of, HOW MANY of them are for youth between the ages of 6-15 yrs of age?NONE?

I'll bet in the 5 years that I taught the ASI safety course here in Michigan, that I did not teach more than 30 kids in all because of the CPSC AGE/CC restrictions.

I've taught 30 kids before with the Michigan program in a single weekend. Now that is what I call SUFFICIENT!