Perhaps you should follow your own advice EEResQ and think before you post. DeeDawg is correct in more than one of his statements. Those that are attempting to restrict or eliminate the ATV activities use any tool possible to further their cause. You seem to believe there is some pure way to express thoughts about the issue of safety.........you might consider that politics and political actions have a tremendous impact on discussions of safety and the right to ride. Your post would be wonderful amunition for a group or individual to use as an anti ATV document. I don't know if your information is fact or fiction but is certainly does little to address safety. People do stupid things, laws and legislation will do nothing to prevent that, anti ATV groups will use stupidity as an excuse to ban ATV use, lock folks out of riding areas or promote their own agendas. Politicians will use those same stupid actions to impose laws and legislation that restrict or eliminate access or ATV use. There is nothing in Dee Dawg's post that is "way out in right field" its only an accurate comment on the way the world works..........Tass

 

So i went snowmobiling yesterday, first ride of the season.I was going about 45 down the railroad beds,pretty fast for the bumpy and rocky conditions.Then two kids decided they needed to pass me going about 70 mph when they did.But they didnt keep going, they quickly turned down a side trail shortly after passing me.These kids were stopped by a trail intersection a couple of minutes before when i went by them.I noticed alot of these younger riders are very inconsiderate,stopping almost in the middle of the trail for no good reason.Their behavior is very antagonistic.Not everyone out there is in it to race or be cool apparently alot of these kids are.It it the irresponsible mentality of these types of riders that is hurting the sport especially for the older,more responsible and experienced riders that are considerate and careful.And alot of ATV riders dont tread lightly or ride respectfully.Do you like riding with people who kick up rocks and dust and tear up trails for no good reason?I know atvs and sleds are different but the the same principles are involved.These younger and inconsiderate riders are hurting themselves and the sport, limiting the sport to these types of riders in a sense and scaring responsible riders away from it,maybe it just wasnt meant for careful riders?

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"There is nothing in Dee Dawg's post that is "way out in right field" its only an accurate comment on the way the world works.........."
Tass</end quote></div>

So, you really believe this is how the world works?
Read the article below and then tell us you believe
this is right; that a child should have died this way.


ATV Operated By 2 Year-Old Rolls Over Killing Boy
January 08, 2007:


LA PLATA, MD - A two year-old La Plata boy died on Saturday when an ATV he was operating rolled over on top of him.

According to the Charles County Sheriff's Department, on Jan. 6 at 12:46 p.m., officers responded to the family's residence in the 12200 block of Little Rock Place in La Plata after they were alerted to the accident. The officer's investigation revealed that the boy was operating a Baja Wilderness 50 four-wheeler in the front yard of his residence.

According to police, the vehicle is designed for children between 6- and 12-years-old and is equipped with a remote cut-off switch. When the boy's mother turned the ATV off by the remote, the ATV came to a stop but the front wheels turned, causing the ATV to overturn on the boy.

The boy was taken by ambulance to Civista Medical Center and then flown by a helicopter to Children's National Medical Center in Washington, D.C., where he was pronounced dead at 4:21 p.m. He was wearing a helmet.

His parents were not charged with a crime.

http://somd.com/news/headlines/2007/5122.shtml

BTW: This completely preventable death of a 2-year-old, on an ATV designed for ages 6 and up, has absolutely nothing to do with your right to ride conspiracy. But, it does serve as a clear indicator that some parents need a better understanding of the safety issues involving ATVs, of any size. It also shows that in some areas of this country there is a complete absence of consequence for one's gross wanton negligence. If we (the ATV riding community) allow these conditions to continue, I assure you that someone outside our community will step in and take action. I, and others not caught up in your conspiracy, would rather focus on the real issue here, What can the ATV community do to reduce the number of deaths and serious injuries?

I repeat: "Enforce laws already on the books."

Then, engage in a media ATV safety campaign similar to the underage drinking and driving efforts of the past 20 years.

FACT: Actions to decrease alcohol-related fatal crashes involving young drivers have been effective. Over the past 20 years, alcohol-related fatal crash rates have decreased by 60 percent for drivers ages 16 to 17 years and 55 percent for drivers ages 18 to 20 years, according to a study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. (See: Elder RW, Shults RA. Trends in alcohol involvement in fatal motor vehicle crashes among young drivers - 1982-2001. MMWR 2002;51:1089 - 91.)

We'll never eliminate "Stupid Kills" in a free society. However, through education and enforcement, plus publicizing both these elements, we can and will REDUCE the numbers. Just as in the underage DUI problem that grew steadily from the 1950s through the 1980s, until we, as a nation, took action.

And it's working!

 

I wonder where they bought the machine. I live in teh general area of this accident, just accross the Potomac in VA. I also know the local Yamaha/Honda/Can-am dealer very well. He is very careful to make sure parents understand the dangers. The problem is when you find these so called dealers on every street corner selling discountedd junk. They have no concept of safety rules, offer no advise other than telling parents that this is a great machine and just as good as a major brand etc. THAT is where we could concentrate some of our efforts. Get rid of these fly by nights. They remind me of shady guys selling fake knock-off watches in the train stations. They even give used car salemen a good name....

 

One - that is very convenient of you "Ignoring the remainder of your post". The entire statement is meant to be taken as a whole, not dissected for your convenience. Perhaps it too difficult for you to comprehend.

Two - Read what Tass wrote

Three - Even in Kentucky, and most assuredly in Maryland, there are already child endangerment laws to protect children from idiots that would put a two year old in that predicament. What kind of a moron allows a two year old to operate any motor vehicle? At that age a child can barely walk, much less operate a motor vehicle. There is a reason no manufacturer would build an ATV for someone this age. How about outlawing the severe lack of common sense? How much do you want to bet that this ATV had warnings on it that it should not be ridden by someone below a certain age? Did this mother have the intellectual capability to read and understand the warning? Why is this "mother" not in jail? At the very least she could be charged with reckless endangerment, if not negligent homicide. In that same state a woman whose child was uninjured was charged with reckless endangerment. http://www.wtop.com/?nid=25&sid=1297570

If you think I am wrong when I wrote that there are people that want to eliminate ATV's, here is just one example: http://www.rideinharford.org/ . I can find many, many more.

QUOTE FOR THE DAY
Procrastination is like masturbation. It seems like a good idea at the time time but in the end you´re just f*^king yourself.

 

EEResQ.....Nothing in my post or any of the others condones the persons actions nor thinks any death is "right". Your posts while containing much of value also contain the process of selective viewing and interpretation. It appears you are comfortable ignoring many of the factors that contribute to injury to individuals and focus on those that are of your personal interest. That is fine, each of us has our own opinions and focus but that gives no right to attack opinions and thoughts of others. Stupid Kills is very accurate but if you look at the remainder of the forum topic "What can the ATV community............." it opens the door to discussions of anything someone might think is or will be a safety issue. The questions and solutions are way broader than the philosophies of one person............Tass

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"One - that is very convenient of you "Ignoring the remainder of your post". The entire statement is meant to be taken as a whole, not dissected for your convenience."
DeeDawg</end quote></div>

DeeDawg, your responses are so typical of your personality type. However, this forum topic does not need to be side tracked by your right-wing demagoguery or Tass' conspiracy theories.

How could I not dissect your disjointed reply to WT's post? In one rambling paragraph you attempt to connect ATV injuries to more restrictions on those who ride, to the total abolishment of ATV riding, to the elimination of off-roading, hunting, guns, Al Gore and the internal combustion engine, money to the UN for global warming, and finally -- "Global warming is one more reason to eliminate our sport." Oh yes, I comprehend what you wrote, just as I comprehend the manifistation of paranoia in your rambling.
I certainly hope this was an act.

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>"How about outlawing the severe lack of common sense?"
DeeDawg</end quote></div>

Now, that's on topic. And, the law you requested is already on the books in most states. It's called "Reckless Endangerment."

A person commits the crime of reckless endangerment if the person recklessly engages in conduct which creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury to another person.

This would be the most appropriate charge for the act of permitting a 2-1/2 year-old to operate any ATV. If the child was only injured in the mishap, a more severe charge of "Felony Reckless Endangerment" would be the appropriate charge. In the case reported above a charge of Felony Reckless Homicide, (or Maryland's statutory equivalent) should have be leveled against the responsible parent. At the time this article was published, the Sheriff's Department stated "His parents were not charged with a crime." However, it's not known if the Coroner's Inquest concluded if any charges were in order.

So, how is this preventable tragedy germane to the topic? Here's how: If charges of "Felony Reckless Homicide" had been brought against the parent who permitted this deadly activity, AT THE TIME IT WAS NEWS, it would have been reported in every newspaper, printed in every ATV or off-roading magazine, and posted on every ATV related website. Now, multiply this media exposure by 150 times each year; the average number of children 16 and under killed in ATV accidents annually for the last 4 years. Eventually, the word will get around; even to the knuckleheads out there. I've said it before,
"Even a knucklehead understands 1 to 5 years."

 

My goodness, "right wing demigogery", "conspiracy theories", it would seem that EEResQ has the Marines and the Army all figured out. I suspect its easier to discount our comments on that basis than to eliminate the obvious case of myopea, open both eyes and see the world for what it is. Knucklehead's will never understand, the concept of enforcement only takes place after there is an issue. Rule and control by fear? I suppose that was an option in Iraq or Viet Nam but not now and definitely not in the USA. Your solution only imprisons, it changes nothing.......Tass

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>I disagree, the injuries are just an excuss by many to restrict those that ride. There are those that don't want anyone riding any atv at any time, ever. These same people are pushing for more and more restrictive laws everyday for the elimination of all off-roading, hunting, guns, etc, etc... Do you think algore was joking when he called for the elimination of the internal combustion engine? And now we get to give even more billions every year to the UN to fight global warming, a subject that is a long, long way from the conclusions of the mainstream scientific assessment. Global warming is one more reason to eliminate our sport. OK, I'll get off my soap box now.... </end quote></div>Boy, lots of heat here while I was out on the trails :-)

Great stuff. Good debate. Nice to get some action here again as the goal of making ATV riding safer is something we all want. There are many ways to get there.

ATV accident statistics are bullets in the guns of the Sierra Club and many pro-environmental groups who want to restrict access in many areas. It is one of many in the clip, not the only one as there has been a green environment movement for at least 40 years.

If they had their way, there would not be any ATVS on public lands so that means there are effective counter measures to work toward making sure public land is available to the PUBLIC, riders included.

On a per capita basis, serious injury and fatalities have gone down and that is a good thing as the green folks have less bullets to load from using ATV accidents as a reason. We'll never eliminate all death and serious injury as it is a high risk sport but at least we might one day put a serious dent into the unnecessary deaths of innocents.

California recognizes pollution coming from ATVs and motorcycles as a problem and has fairly stringent regulations in place to address this topic. The "green sticker" requirement is real and the movement from two-strokes is real. Look at the AMA going to four strokes. Look at the product lineup of new MC and ATVs in California; you have to look very hard to find a 2 stroke product anymore.


As you say global warming is another reason to eliminate our sport but I have studied the detailed statistics of total pollution emissions from various sources and ATV are pretty low on the list. I don't think the politics of energy and autos in Washington are going to give in without a huge fight. Economically, it is just not going to happen unless there is global cooperation and equitable "taxation" to reduce pollution. The costs are astronomical and it would put those countries who accept the challenge to become less competitive in a global economy.

 

<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Knucklehead's will never understand, the concept of enforcement only takes place after there is an issue. Rule and control by fear? I suppose that was an option in Iraq or Viet Nam but not now and definitely not in the USA. Your solution only imprisons, it changes nothing.......Tass</end quote></div>I'd rather characterize it as consequences rather than "fear". If one knows, through effective education, the full consequence of doing something illegal which would create serious impact on that person, that person does think twice before committing the act. It is interesting yet a fact that the number of folks with "knucklehead" across their forehead decreases once most "get it".

No matter what one thinks, a free society is managed to a great extent by laws which are enacted by political bodies elected by the voting citizens. The balance between too many and too few laws is a gray area and there will never be agreement on where it should be centered.

After riding on the El Dorado National Forest this weekend and being fairly informed about the USFS travel management plan including controlling access within the forests, I can say there is plenty of access on the proposed routes. In this one Forest there are over 2200 miles of roads and trails. The Plan calls for maybe 700 of them to be restricted. That sounds like a shocking number but most of it are routes created by riders carving a route to some fishing hole and then more feeder trails going off these. Nobody wants the forest to look like one of the State riding parks. Great for riding but by God, you see how badly off road riding can destroy the land. It takes a lot of money to keep the trails maintained which is being done. It is impossible to do this on a National Forest scale, so rules are necessary to allow access by the public yet balance that use against the desire to maintain a good looking wilderness and keep cost to maintain the forests within budgets.

You can't expect to allow free access to the forests and not maintain them. To maintain them properly takes a lot of resources yet the right wants government out of their business and that includes additional taxes for maintaining unrestricted riding on forest lands which the right is not willing to support and vote. Can't have it both ways guys. On balance, I truly feel we have it pretty good and the process works to find a working balance for those who are involved. And working does not mean everyone gets what they want and are completely happy.