Well, starting July 1st, the lovely ANF is now going to charge us a $35 annual user fee for the trail system! They claim they cannot maintain the trail system with the amount of vehicles that travel on it in a year. WHAT!? WE'RE GETTING CHARGED MORE TO RIDE ON OUR LAND!??!?!? THIS IS THE LAND THAT WE PAY FOR WITH OUR TAX MONEY!!!!!! THey've really pushed us WAY TOO FAR THIS TIME!

The whole reason for the plate/insurance issue that we've experienced in the last couple of months....is simple. Remember how they're pushing for landowners to let them build trails on their land instead of using the ANF? Well, this is so, they can "patrol" us easier (with the visible plate) and now our ATV insurance will cover any damage that we do to the landowner's property.

And now this? What's next!? We have to stop this crap! What's happening to our state registration money!? You know HOW much money is in that fund!? ALOT! Why can they not apply this money to the already established most used trail systems?? Humm, I guess that would be too easy. Instead let's give $77,000 to a resort to host a atv dice run to make money!

There is a resort in West Findley Twp
called Four Seasons in Washinton County Pa. They received a grant from
our ATV fund for 77,000 dollars and are now putting on a Poker Run and
obstacle course and mud bog to make money. I called them and asked how
they could do this after getting state money and they said it is
legal.I have contacted my congressman and suggest that all of you do
the same. I really don't think this is what we or the state was
supposed to do with our money. Yes they have made some more riding
areas but we have the same thing at poker runs.

This was an email that I had recieved.

What can we do? We're really getting screwed here. How about we don't pay the fee, and all meet on the trail on July 6th (the first weekend in July) and all ride together! What are they going to do? Fine us all? We have to start standing up for ourselves sometime......I'm sick of getting stepped on. Let's get the media involved and anyone else. Come on people! Let's do something!!

 

This is totally absurd. I refuse to pay the registration fee for these reasons. there is no point in doing so as it isnt going to benefit me. give em an inch and they take a mile (literally).

I will be on the marienville trail memorial day weekend- same as alot of people, I do it every year, and will forever (until someone passes a law that I cant). I suggest we get organized on that date, hand out flyers for our ride on july 6th

Also I would like more info on this "four-seasons" is it an all year round riding area free for use by all? If not I surely hope no one attends this event, they used our money to prepare and will take our money again to ride in it.

 

Nope. Just a one time thing. PAatving.com has more on it. I know I'm not going

 

Thats just foul, $77,000 for a one time ride to raise money? I'll have some of what they are smoking

What are they raising money for? oh wait let me guess, themselves?

 

The article in the Saturday Erie Times said that this is not a PA fee but a fee being imposed by the National Forest Service under the National Fee Demonstration Program. The fee will be imposed on dirt bikes and atv's riding on ANF trailws beginning July 1, 2002. It has nothing do do with the PA DCNR license or private land issues. Only ANF Trails.

So, if you want to ride the Marienville/Timberline trails in PA it will be $20.00 to the PA DCNR + $35 to the Forest Service for each atv. The dirt bikes have no DCNR fee, just the $35.00. WTF is going on here. Mountain bikes can ride for free. But no horses, they damage trails too much . . . actually I though horses deposit more material back on the trails than they take away by erosion.

What should happen is that about 1,000 atv'ers and dirt bikers show up in Marienville on July 1 and tell the Forest Service to shove their fee where it started in the first place. I doubt they will have the resources to patrol or arrest 1,000 people with a newly-enacted law. There has been no announcement of the "penalties for not complying as yet. According to published sources, there was "no public input" regarding these fees.

Sounds like the Forest Service is starting to pull the same crap that they have been trying to do in many areas out west over the last couple of years. They state the fees are to be used for trail maintenance. Then WTF are the PA DCNR fees used for, beer money?

Rather disgusting in my opinion.

I notice that Glamis, Silver Lake, and other areas are starting to get overcrowding and law enforcement fees are being enacted, etc. What the govt. has done is to herd us into atv "reservations" just like they did native Americans, so they can "control us" better since we are such a bad lot. Then they complain because the cost is too great to maintain the trails by forcing us to all ride in the same areas. No kidding! If they were to double or triple the riding trail areas based on the current sales levels of atv's and dirt bikes it would certainly be a step in the right direction. Even I would applaude that type of effort.

Oh well, with the Forest Service Militia, PA DCNR Patrol, and PA Game Commission Gestapo on the prowl for us "dangerous criminals" on atv's, I guess the world will be a much safer place for all the tree huggers after July 1.

I really hope Pennsylvania atv enthusiasts will come out of hiding and support efforts to get this thing changed around. This is our land and we should be allowed to use it. Paying excessive fees is really a joke. It's pretty obvious that the environmentalists got to the Forest Service on this one. They are hoping to reduce the number of atv's and bikes on the trails . . . it will work . . . very sneaky back door move by "our Forest Service Militia".

 

There is a coalition working to try to change things (patvcc.org)but its going to take alot of time to turn this thing around. The DCNR has also alotted 250,000 per year from the atv fund for the salary's of five of the new rangers they have hired to patrol the trails. They have hired more they are only charging us for 5 now, isn't that a bargain. As far as the four seasons thing I contacted my congressman about whether they can charge and they said give them some time to check and they will get back to me. It will be a 1 week tomorrow and I haven't heard a word. If you are from Pa check out the site I posted above and just look at all the stuff thats going on since they passed this new law. What a bunch of crap !

 

Here is the complete text of the Erie Times-News article



Annual permit required for ATVs

By John Bartlett

WARREN — Off-road-motorcycle and all-terrain vehicle riders will have to pay to use the off-road vehicle trails in the Allegheny National Forest beginning July 1.

An annual permit costing $35 will be required to use the trails, which are the only places in the national forest where off-road vehicles can be legally operated.

The fee is being imposed under the authority of the National Fee Demonstration Program, Allegheny National Forest Supervisor Kevin Elliot said in a prepared release.

Imposition of the fee caught ATV and off-road motorcyclists by surprise, said Brian Mills of East Springfield, president of ATV Traction, the second largest club of its type in the state.

"I was at the state snowmobile/ATV advisory committee meeting in Harrisburg on Tuesday when Dale Dunshie (an Allegheny National Forest officer) told us about it," Mills said. "There was no public input that I'm aware of."

The fee is so new that there has been no time to get any feedback from club members or others in the off-road community, he said.

"I can't speak for our membership because I have no input from them yet, but my personal opinion is it singles out motorized recreation as the only recreation group that will have to pay a fee for their recreation — hikers and (mountain) bikers are not assessed any fee," Mills said.

However, the Allegheny National Forest imposes fees at campgrounds and boat launches.

Increased use of the off-road vehicle trails, which total 108 miles, coupled with budget constraints have left the Forest Service unable to keep up with increasing maintenance needs of the trails, Elliot said.

Annually, off-road vehicle trail maintenance costs on the Allegheny National Forest range from $280,000 to $300,000, according to a fact sheet from the Forest Service.

An extensive analysis was done to arrive at a fair and reasonable cost for the permit. The fee amount is based on the cost to administer the off-highway program, and a comparison of fees charged by other federal and private areas for comparable trail facilities, Elliot said.

Ninety-five percent of the money collected from the fees will remain with the Allegheny National Forest and 80 percent will go directly to "on-the-ground" trail work and maintenance, he said.

The required off-road vehicle trail permits are currently available at any Allegheny National Forest office and at the Tionesta Service Center. Arrangements are also being made to have them available at area ATV and motorcycle shops, Elliot said.

JOHN BARTLETT can be reached at (814) 724-6979 or 870-1723 or by e-mail.

Last changed: March 07. 2002 5:23PM

 

Unfortunately the PATVCC does not have their facts straight. They have sided with the montain biker assn. in going up against the sportmen of Pennsylvania (hunters). I'm afraid they will be in for a problem trying to change the use of PA Game Lands that have been paid for by the sportsmens dollars.

Here is what they want -- (this text has been taken right from their patvcc web site)

· The Pennsylvania game Commission governs over 35% of Pennsylvania’s public natural lands. Decisions that are made that affect the use of such public lands should be monitored to ensure that the public input process is lawful and fair and that the voice of all concerned citizens is heard.
--------This is incorrect since the land is not "public land". These people are very mis-informed. It is PA Game Commission land that has been bought and paid for by sportsmen dollars and Pittman-Robertson funds from taxes on guns, ammo, etc. The public has no business using this land since they did not pay for it. The Sportsmen of Pennsylvania entrusts this property to the PA Game Comm as guardians. The voice of all concerned citizens has no business here, only the voices of PA Sportsmen and hunting license holders, since they are the ones who paid for this property.

· Regardless of the Pennsylvania Game Commission's specific mission and management of such lands, they are public lands. Each citizen of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania should have the right to have input into the decisions that could restrict access to such lands and a responsible format for registering complaint when they, as citizens, feel this right has been denied.
---------This statment says it all. The commision has rules and by-laws to go by regarding this land. Each citizen does not have any right whatsoever in the decisions about how and who can use this land. To change this would break the rules set up by the state for the PA Game Commission.

· As a public agency, the Pennsylvania Game Commission should be subject to the same public review and scrutiny that all public agencies of Pennsylvania are subject to.
---------The Game Commision is not a public agency as such, read the by-laws and constitution. It will operate under the rules that it has been for many, many successful years. Public review and public scrutiny is not called for under these rules.

This whole deal started when the mountain bikers got pissed off because they could not use game comm. property to ride on. They talked the atv groups to join in. Why should they be allowed? As a PA hunter and sportsman they should have to purchase a license and use the land as we intended it to be used . . . for hunting. Just becasue it's there does not mean it belongs to the "public", because the game commission governs it. This patvcc is going to run into some problems and create more and more land posting to atv riding, etc because of their stance. I know of many large land owners in the nw part of the state who don't take kindly to their stance on this issue. Many, many sportsmen (hunters) at pissed off also.

It's too bad that these organizations like patvcc have to take such a radical stance to try to get their message across. The divide they will create would be better served by siding with the PA sportsmen on many issues and trying to get certain trails opened to atv use while hunting. But Noooooooooo, they want to put the state legislature in charge of the game commission. The state legislature in PA has a reputation for turning everything into politics on every issue. The Game Commission does not need that and the Sportsmen of PA are fighting that issue. Remember, there are about 1,000,000 of us registered hunters in PA. This is a huge group to go up against. It would be far better to have them as an ally than and enemy.

I've been an atv and dirt bike enthusiast for many years and would love to see more trails open in our state. But to go about it in this fashion is dead wrong and will backfire on atv'ers. Remember, many sportsmen like myself own and ride atv's. I know you won't get any suport there. The primary purpose for this land is hunting.

Until atv'ers start to pay their own way and buy or lease their own land, the trail system will continue to shrink. Put up the $$$$ you need for your own land or lease it as everyone else is doing. The problem is the atv assn's do not have the membership, support or the dollars to do this or they would have done so by now. I would love to see a group lease property and pay for the liability insurance so their members could ride for a fee. I would join, how about you? It's about time to put up or shut up.

One more thing . . . I "was" a member of the Blue Ribbon Coalition, I quit. I tried to get them to give me help on land issues in PA so more areas could possibly be opened for trail riding. I received "0" response from them. They only support issues in the western portion of our country apparently.

The more I listen, the more these atv associations are starting to sound like the radical tree huggers and environmentalists that we all despise. But if this trend continues, it will do nothing but decrease the available riding land because of all the enemies being made. It would be far better to create atv groups within the PA hunting community as part of the PA Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs or the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania and enlist their help to use their land that has been entrusted to the PA Game Comm. rather than trying to change something that virtually every true sportsman in Pennsylvania is against.

One last thing . . . I do not endorse the way the PA Game Commission enforces the atv laws in our state. Quite possibly it is because of this great divide between patvcc and PAGC that the rules are being enforced to the letter of the law. This is creating problems for everyone and can only get worse until a reasonable dialogue can be created between these groups. It would help all of us.

 

I've been hunting and fishing just as long as I've been riding Atv's. I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. The day they say we can use Atv's for hunting purposes, is the day I'll quit. that's BS. I'm sorry. Get off your butt and walk! Now handicap sportsmen, that's different. I think they should be allowed.

I will support the PATVCC. The Game Commision has gotten out of hand. Someone has to standup to them. This is the USA not some communist government like the GC runs the game lands. We have a handfull of officers in the commonwealth that deserve to be there.

 

This is my two cents for what its worth. I am president of a Four wheel drive club and the membership is limited to 60 members with many on the waiting list. For 25 years we have had our own property 360 acres and on that property we ride four wheeled trucks and jeeps,atv's,bikes and hunt and target shoot.This is just an example of what can be done with game lands and other public property. Yes we have discussions between factions 4 wheel ,bikes,hunters but we work out those problems. We don't ride on Saturdays during hunting season ,ride on Sundays. We have larger trails for trucks and jeeps smaller ones for quads and bikes. The game comission and state and national forest can do the same but it takes management and they spend too much of our money on stuff that people don't use and not enough on stuff that people do use.Example they just built more rails to trails for biker's and hiker's. There are way more atver's than both of these groups but thats is where the money is going.The botton line on all this is the tree hugger. They have the politicians in there pocket and until we change that we will not have anything.They hate atv's as much as the mideast hates the Americans and until we change that feeling we are doomed.