I 'also' appreciate your feedback and willingness to come forward on this.

Heck, Bill and I have disagreed IN PUBLIC on more issues than I could ever remember...................but you know what? At least we behave like men should and are willing to let our opinions be commented on by the 'rest of the world'; where they can either be picked apart or got behind.

Why are the three of us in 'here' (the atvconnection forum) anyways and where in the hell are all the rest of Michigan's riders who are afraid of getting kicked off their club's site (via the 'no politics rule') for expressing these same thoughts? Are these guys/gals so in 'lock-step' with whatever's said; that they can't even get outraged at the latest 'non-answer; with no explanation' that's been thrown at their feet?

No, you are doing just fine, yetti........... and were astute enough to bring up this issue 'beforehand'; which these two groups are refusing to even evaluate wether we have a chance in hell of bringing to fruition. And with that issue in mind (the opening of the lower peninsula); these leaders sure as heck better be able to name EVERY SINGLE PERSON AND DEPARTMENT that is backing them up on this supposedly 'all out', legitimate campaign and exactly who ISN'T and WHY. Gee, do we deserve anything 'less'(?); especially if our club leaders are asking us all to tell another group (the ARGO people) that they don't deserve as wide a trail as THEIR club were asking 'them' to create?

When you throw in the fact that these club members were all hyped up about 'grooming' these same trails after they were through 'widening' them enough to do so...........................it comes down to blatant hypocrisy. And with most of those members sitting back right now with their mouths shut........................it's no small wonder that this mess has snowballed into what this senator is dealing with right now.

I just want to thank Senator Garcias and Leland for being the ONLY people in this state with the guts to bring this issue out into the open....... and history, along with our grandchildren, will someday thank them for it.

 

Another question:

Why in the heck would the Motorcycle Dealer's Association of Michigan be 'for' this legislation if they didn't think this would sell more units?

'Gee'..........do you think wider, better maintained trails; that you weren't afraid your kids were going to get hurt on; just 'might' mean more riders on the trails and a better recreational experience all around?

Why No! Our club leaders would like us all to believe that:

#1) They have "no idea" what the cycle club leader's future view of the trail system is.

#2) They have some kind of future plan for widening atv trails other than claiming they have every right to widen 'their own' trails and that we should all somehow keep that fact 'secret'.

#3) That we don't remember they have already claimed that any widening project would "not be possible' <U>without</U> the motorcyclists on board!

I't's kind of ironic that somebody once mentioned that we (atvers) didn't want to work on trails with the motorcyclists, because this would be akin to just being another chapter 'under' them...............................welllllllllllll llll, isn't it funny that the motorcyclists are dictating what we stand for right now?

Or is this 'payment' for (what the motorcyclists have told me) the trails that they GAVE the atvers in the first place? Sorry guys, but an atv group didn't just 'materialize' out of nowhere without (what appears) might always be an unconditional supportive 'debt' to be paid, in our policy.

 

Its been about 2 weeks since I posted my questions to our club official in regards to HIS thoughts on SB100 [57 inch trails]and the re-opening of the lower Pennisula.He wanted responses from ''other''club members because he thought he did a fine job of explaining himself in our general meeting,on this topic.Is obvious to see by the lack of responses by those who attended this meeting,that many others are also ''unclear'' on our leaders position in regards to the above issue's.

''PROTECTING YOUR RIGHTS''-----''SERVING YOUR INTERESTS''

Just what does this Logo mean anyways?

Bill

 

This whole episode has been pretty disappointing, in that it has went on 'at least' since January and not even the member attending these meetings has offered to come forward.
Let alone the ridiculousness of having somebody choose to ignore what these members are asking in your topic (the leadership has no choice in wether to 'get back' and answer these questions; but half of these guy's questions won't be included when the audience is granted[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]).

Really huge miscalculation on their part; as I know there are plenty of guys/gals in there that won't take what's been given so far as anywhere 'near' acceptable on such an important issue. If you're going to have a club that doesn't allow elected leadership.....................you darn well better not upset the people (referring to those active enough to give a rip) who are letting you run with the ball.

I'm just glad that one of the members has broken the 'code of silence'; to come right out and admit that this 60" plan 'was' enacted and 'why'......................................I talked about 60" trail maintenance being proposed 'secretly'; as being RIDICULOUS a long time ago................so are we finally going to find out who wasn't supposed to know about this plan and why?

What's sad is that there's a chance that this is being handled in this way to 'weed out' any future dissenters and pesky questions as a rule. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

john, i wlould like tp reply, but it's hard to keep up with you and all that you write[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]. when i start writing i say things i shouldn't. anyway, at the last meeting when told our orv sticker prices were gonna go up to the 20.00 range. i quickly asked if it was going up so sharply due to the fact the orv/snowmobile fund had to pay back umpteen amount of money to the fish and game fund. i was replied with a quick answer of "no"! i often wonder to why we only rich at these meetings. i see alot of names on the who's who page, but i never see them on rides and at meetings.? i know we all have different lives to live but gee's. it would be nice to see these faces behind the names.

also, unless im missing something, you always point out some detroit trails and suburbia and such phrase's like such. i take offesne to that somewhat. if i had my way, i'd leave the wife and move up north[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]. i hate it here in westland. what exactly do you mean by detroit area trails? mt. morris????
anyhoot, i gotta go pack for windrock. see ya tim

 

Tim.

You aren't the only one who says things they probably "shouldn't"..................but most of my time spent discussing these issues; seems spent simply repeating what has already been said in the past (and which has rarely been brought forth 'willingly'...........[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img])

In regards to the 'Detroit' and 'suburbia' characterizations; I have been merely pointing out, for a long time now, that the 'hot projects' this club has brought forward, have had very little to do with 'outstate' Michigan(New Southeast Michigan riding area; 60 inch widths for the trails closest to Detroit and new graders for when the widening job is completed).

I am sure that every person in SE Michigan would be very pleased to have a 'Detroit' riding area out their back doors. Let's say that this 'pay to play' area is built and along comes Senator Garcia with his groundbreaking proposal to make ALL our orv trails, multi-use. (isn't it funny how these clubs don't want his idea characterized AT ALL,in this way?[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]) Just how many riders from SE Michigan do you think are going to be interested (or able) to spend maintenance hours on the 'Tomahawk' trail; if they already conveniently enjoy what the 'rest' of the state cannot?

Furthermore, what has SE Michigan's enthusiasm for widened 'local' trails (that they can more easily get their 'brand new' graders down) done for their reputation as equal partners with the rest of us outside SE Michigan? And when the chance finally comes for these 'rural' trails to be fixed.............................a 'big city' club is going to say: "no way; we're the only users who deserve this"?

Sorry, but for the club to claim now that: "well.............our master plan was to take over ALL the trails and widen them ALL to 60" EVENTUALLY"...........is a flat out lie (which would've meant cutting the imbilical cord attached to the motorcycle leader 'anyways').

Your comment on the 'other' people at these meetings goes back to what I have been saying about the 'exclusive' nature of these leader's relationships amongst themselves and the obvious 'hoarding' of any information passed between them. If our leader is going to claim that he has 'no idea' what any other club's future view of the trail system is..................what in the heck have they all been talking about and what 'else' do they claim is for their consumption only?(does anybody dare ask exactly 'what' TRAIL issues they would like to equate with 'national security'?!) These guys have somehow come to the conclusion that the 'rest of us' have no rights in regards to what they are saying before or after our orv board meeting convenes and that this whole orv issue is somehow THEIRS to report on, at their liesure, every 2 or 4 months and not a minute before! (see the 'double talk/non-answer' on the 57" trail issue and not a word 'since'............). And when you throw in the pure ARROGANCE of threatening to drop out of the maintenance program if they 'don't get their way'?..................'sorry'; but I lose respect, in a hurry, to any leader that crawls in bed with these guys, under the same blanket that they would try and blackmail this state with.

Wouldn't you rather have an 'open' Alliances section and freely network with cyclists, snowmobilers and 4WD enthusisasts from all over the state, where (God forbid) some ideas from simple 'peons' at the member level, could be brought forward and DEMAND some attention to?(believe me, these guys aren't used to anybody 'demanding' anything.................and just 'how' long, has this been the case?).

Hope you guys have a good time down at Windrock; the pool wasn't heated when we were there two weeks ago; but you sure can't beat the Plaza when it comes to amenities (especially at $55/night for 'two'!). Y'all have a safe trip and I know for sure that you'll be having a blast (it just doesn't get much better!).

John

 

hi guys,just been busy writing to lansing to invite our "reps" and our Govener to comment on our topic thous far, and to find out what the states position is in relation to all of the questions being asked. frankly I think its a snowballs chance in H**L , but I have to keep rattling chains. it would be a good sign to see any returned messages from our elected officials. I hope some good comes from all this , my fingers are tired.

 

Thanks for the effort. I don't harbor any illusions either when considering that your efforts are 'supposed' to be being made in concert with what these other groups have supposedly chosen this time to come forward on. What's going to happen now..........you receiving a phone call from one of these leaders claiming that they had 'no idea' you felt this way and were working on this and haven't been reading these comments?

From my thoughts above:
...."And with that issue in mind (the opening of the lower peninsula); these orv leaders sure as heck better be able to name EVERY SINGLE PERSON AND DEPARTMENT that is backing them up on this supposedly 'all out', legitimate campaign and exactly who ISN'T and WHY. Gee, do we deserve anything 'less'(?)......."

So which orv leaders are working on DEFEATING this bill and who has ALREADY sprung into action on some 'big push' to revive the old law? Wouldn't one think that an orv leader would have contacted you by now with some of the names I mentioned above; as a jesture of simple support for your cause?(and maybe given you a few names of people for you to 'watch out' for; from all these years of pushing so hard to get this riding area back?)............................................ .......or are your efforts 'insignificant' when hatched outside the confines of 'the club'?
Thanks for going it alone and seemingly being one of the few who see this bill as being somewhat historic. Did you ever get the feeling that a lot of what's wrong with this bill; is that these clubs wanted this issue ignored; know have no control over it and can't ultimately take credit for even 'part' of it, if enacted? They don't deserve an ounce and there would be no sweeter justice, then if the state 'called' their "we won't work" card................forcing them to do the work or become immediately insignificant in the 'multi-use' orv program.........'sorry'; but thank you for threatening us! (it made us realize that we had a job to do).

These guys want to shove this 'founder of the trails' crap down our throats at every opportunity (while in 2003 they strongarm and threaten to abandon the whole thing)......................................how worried do you think these leaders may be; that this bill (and their opposition to it) could just possibly paint their most 'recent' efforts in a little different light? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

There's ''Politicians''and than there are ''Leaders''??????

I've learned alot in regards to politics in the last 3 yrs.

Bill

 

here I go again, trying to help everybody, and the winner is.... "not me".I can't beleave what questions I have to answer from the folks at work that have heard that we are working on this "trails issue". its like I said before," everyone thinks there isn't a problem". and today again I had to be the bad guy and tell someone who just bought 2 new quads from their local dealer , who didn't tell them its Illegal to ride in lower michigan, again the lack of knowlage has sold 2 more quads, these dealers have to have responsablity to their customers, and tell them there rights and rules "before" they purchase their new quads. when the state and its dealers have time in their busy days to inform people of their "rights", and take some responsablity when they sell a machine to someone with little or no knowlage, it will be a better place for sure. Yetti P.S. can we put up a bill board with the atv/orvers rights on it? would the state get mad , trying to explain to people where their rights went? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]