Future for the 450
#1
07-08-2007 | 04:58 AM
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The Facility
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From: Mississippi
Future for the 450
I dont know how many of you keep up with general industry news or maybe if this hasnt already been mentioned here in the last couple weeks, but I wanted to share a bit of what I learned today. I dont have the article with me or I would apply it here, but this is the summary.........
The AMA and FIM have joined forces on major rule changes to the dirtbike world of MX and SX and most rules could go into effect as early as the 2009 season.
Both the AMA and FIM are seeking to eliminate the 450 4 strokes from being allowed to compete due to the power characteristics of these bikes. They argue that the bikes are doing to todays MX/SX, what the 500 2 strokes were doing in the early 1990s....too much horsepower and only a handful of riders able to fully use the power they provide. Another argument also going against the 450 bikes are sound issues.
Both the AMA and the FIM, for now, have proposed a 350cc limit on 4 strokes for the premiere classes and this new rule would go into effect beginning with the 2009 racing season. This is not set in stone YET,..but it is on the books as a proposed rule for 2009.
The Big 7 manufacturers were given proper notice of this proposed rule change and a first meeting of all the comittees involved from all parties will be held a little later this summer to more thoroughly discuss the issue before making a final ruling on the new rule.
There was talk at first about forcing the 450 bikes to use restrictors (ala..Nascar),...but it was axed in comittee because the theory is that restrictors would severely decrease acceleration and make it dangerous for the riders riding them considering that acceleration in MX is most crucial.
Another rule change being talked about that will apply to Europe only,..so far... is the come back of the 125 2 stroke. Those classes will forbid the 250cc 4 strokes regardless of displacement or restrictions. Their argument is that the average grass roots racer cannot financially be competitive due to the expenses and complex mechanical nature that comes with the 4 stroke bikes.
In the mini bike classes (85cc), both the AMA and FIM are totally banning 4 strokes from that class in 2008. The limit there currently is 125cc...but only one 4 stroke mini racer exists as of date and it's the CRF150R. Last year, the AMA allowed the bike to racer in the supermini (105cc), but not the 85 class due to being over the 125cc limit. Next year, it will not get to compete period. Its no secret that Honda THOUGHT that the AMA would change the 125cc limit to 150cc when the CRF150R was released to the public last year. But obviously, they were wrong and should have saw what was coming next.
Who will all of these rule changes and proposed rule changes hurt the most?? Honda.
Honda announced just last September that the company will discontinue all 2 stroke powered equipment and motorcycles after the 2007 model year. There are no Honda CRs at all for 2008. Honda is the most conservative all the brands and their "leadership" role of setting the standards for others to follow may have just bit them in the @$$.
Kawasaki doesnt invest alot of R&D into the KX line, but it is still there. Same for Suzuki. Yamaha and KTM however invest great efforts into their 2 stroke programs still to this day.
So how does all of this affect the ATV world?? Well, personally, I dont see the 450 engines in ATV use causing landslide season victories for any given rider like it has for the dirtbikes.
In fact, it is MY opinion, that our sport on the Pro level has been very tight competition wise. Especially in MX. The same guy doesnt win every single week. Maybe the extra weight of our machines makes the 450cc engines a perfect choice??
But the one issue that WILL become a factor if the proposed 450 dirtbike rules stand,..will be the R&D OUR engines get in the future.
I cant see any of the manufactures catering to the ATV crowd as they have the past coupe years. I could be totally wrong, but it's no secret that we wouldnt have any of what we have today without the dirtbikes getting the technology first.
If 450 dirtbikes are indeed banned from the AMA for 2009, there is no doubt that the OEMs would discontinue them for that a huge chunk of the market its intended for.
We end up with 10 year old engine designs with little or no improvements. Back to the 1990s we go. Unless they decide to give us those new smaller engines to.
So what are we left with then?
A TRX350R?
YFZ350? (Now theres a familiar model name)
The AMA and FIM have joined forces on major rule changes to the dirtbike world of MX and SX and most rules could go into effect as early as the 2009 season.
Both the AMA and FIM are seeking to eliminate the 450 4 strokes from being allowed to compete due to the power characteristics of these bikes. They argue that the bikes are doing to todays MX/SX, what the 500 2 strokes were doing in the early 1990s....too much horsepower and only a handful of riders able to fully use the power they provide. Another argument also going against the 450 bikes are sound issues.
Both the AMA and the FIM, for now, have proposed a 350cc limit on 4 strokes for the premiere classes and this new rule would go into effect beginning with the 2009 racing season. This is not set in stone YET,..but it is on the books as a proposed rule for 2009.
The Big 7 manufacturers were given proper notice of this proposed rule change and a first meeting of all the comittees involved from all parties will be held a little later this summer to more thoroughly discuss the issue before making a final ruling on the new rule.
There was talk at first about forcing the 450 bikes to use restrictors (ala..Nascar),...but it was axed in comittee because the theory is that restrictors would severely decrease acceleration and make it dangerous for the riders riding them considering that acceleration in MX is most crucial.
Another rule change being talked about that will apply to Europe only,..so far... is the come back of the 125 2 stroke. Those classes will forbid the 250cc 4 strokes regardless of displacement or restrictions. Their argument is that the average grass roots racer cannot financially be competitive due to the expenses and complex mechanical nature that comes with the 4 stroke bikes.
In the mini bike classes (85cc), both the AMA and FIM are totally banning 4 strokes from that class in 2008. The limit there currently is 125cc...but only one 4 stroke mini racer exists as of date and it's the CRF150R. Last year, the AMA allowed the bike to racer in the supermini (105cc), but not the 85 class due to being over the 125cc limit. Next year, it will not get to compete period. Its no secret that Honda THOUGHT that the AMA would change the 125cc limit to 150cc when the CRF150R was released to the public last year. But obviously, they were wrong and should have saw what was coming next.
Who will all of these rule changes and proposed rule changes hurt the most?? Honda.
Honda announced just last September that the company will discontinue all 2 stroke powered equipment and motorcycles after the 2007 model year. There are no Honda CRs at all for 2008. Honda is the most conservative all the brands and their "leadership" role of setting the standards for others to follow may have just bit them in the @$$.
Kawasaki doesnt invest alot of R&D into the KX line, but it is still there. Same for Suzuki. Yamaha and KTM however invest great efforts into their 2 stroke programs still to this day.
So how does all of this affect the ATV world?? Well, personally, I dont see the 450 engines in ATV use causing landslide season victories for any given rider like it has for the dirtbikes.
In fact, it is MY opinion, that our sport on the Pro level has been very tight competition wise. Especially in MX. The same guy doesnt win every single week. Maybe the extra weight of our machines makes the 450cc engines a perfect choice??
But the one issue that WILL become a factor if the proposed 450 dirtbike rules stand,..will be the R&D OUR engines get in the future.
I cant see any of the manufactures catering to the ATV crowd as they have the past coupe years. I could be totally wrong, but it's no secret that we wouldnt have any of what we have today without the dirtbikes getting the technology first.
If 450 dirtbikes are indeed banned from the AMA for 2009, there is no doubt that the OEMs would discontinue them for that a huge chunk of the market its intended for.
We end up with 10 year old engine designs with little or no improvements. Back to the 1990s we go. Unless they decide to give us those new smaller engines to.
So what are we left with then?
A TRX350R?
YFZ350? (Now theres a familiar model name)
#2
07-08-2007 | 09:16 AM
Red Rider
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Future for the 450
Any fuss about MX is just more marketing BS. Sure, professional MX gets attention because it is where the manufacturers showcase their machines...but how relevant is MX to the average rider...not one little bit! While some recreational riders may feel great knowing that they are on an "MX" machine (what wins on Sunday, sells on Monday????), 99.9% of those machines will never actually ever see an MX track, not even on practice day.
There are dozens of riders both dirt bike and quad that I know personally, and except for a couple of the top dirt bikers, I don't think any one of them could give your the names of any of the top MXers in the country, much less tell you what machine they ride or what manufacturer they ride for. It just isn't something that is relevant to anybody......
They couldn't even tell you what AMA or FIM stands for! These organizations are irrelivant, and nobody at the grass roots level really cares what their rules are! AMA stands for American Medical Association...right????
There are dozens of riders both dirt bike and quad that I know personally, and except for a couple of the top dirt bikers, I don't think any one of them could give your the names of any of the top MXers in the country, much less tell you what machine they ride or what manufacturer they ride for. It just isn't something that is relevant to anybody......
They couldn't even tell you what AMA or FIM stands for! These organizations are irrelivant, and nobody at the grass roots level really cares what their rules are! AMA stands for American Medical Association...right????
#3
07-08-2007 | 08:31 PM
Shed Knocker Rider
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Future for the 450
Actually Recon, you're way off base, in the dirt bike world, quite a few of them hit the MX track.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] Just because you or your riding buddies don't know squat about MX, doesn't mean a large mass of people doesn't either. There is a reason it is so popular.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]
As for the rule changes, something is in fact going to happen in MX, but I don't think it will effect ATV's. Like already said, with the extra weight of an ATV, I think a 450 is about the perfect engine for them.
As for the rule changes, something is in fact going to happen in MX, but I don't think it will effect ATV's. Like already said, with the extra weight of an ATV, I think a 450 is about the perfect engine for them.
#4
07-09-2007 | 12:44 AM
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The Facility
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Future for the 450
I imagine most average dirtbike riders couldnt name any but the Top few riders in the country who race MX.
Which is AMAs main point of argument.
Racers on the grass roots level do care. You should look into what a topend build for a 250 4 stroke costs. And on top of that, more than half of these guys cant even adjust their valves, much less tear the engine down. It is complex to your average rider with little mechanical skills and it is very expensive compared to the 2 strokes.
Yes,...these guys could go back to the 2 strokes and save that money,...but why go to an underpowered machine???
Not many people can afford spending 2G a year in rebuilds when they paid 6G for the bike...plus,...having the normal race expenses week in and week out. And this is exactly the normal routine for a racer who regulary competes all season.
The goal of the AMA is to promote racing. And thats what they are trying to do,...by making it affordable again and feasible for the average rider who isnt on a factory payroll.
The whole thing makes perfect sense for anyone who races. Who is going to argue about the AMA wanting things more fair and more affordable???? Who?? The Top few pros and the ones who just left the dealer with a new 450...thats who.
The manufacturers make money by spending millions and millions on dirtbike racing each year. If they didnt, why do it?
Many say that our ATV dollars go there and thats why the have the money to do it. I say that is a good assumption....however it is totally not true.
The manufactures are going to spend money based on public impact...which dirtbike racing brings across to more interested people than ATV racing or utility quad televised broadcasts do. It's been going on since the Japs put MXers on our soil in 1972. I dont think the sales from the ATC90 had anything to do with their race expenditures.
Which is AMAs main point of argument.
Racers on the grass roots level do care. You should look into what a topend build for a 250 4 stroke costs. And on top of that, more than half of these guys cant even adjust their valves, much less tear the engine down. It is complex to your average rider with little mechanical skills and it is very expensive compared to the 2 strokes.
Yes,...these guys could go back to the 2 strokes and save that money,...but why go to an underpowered machine???
Not many people can afford spending 2G a year in rebuilds when they paid 6G for the bike...plus,...having the normal race expenses week in and week out. And this is exactly the normal routine for a racer who regulary competes all season.
The goal of the AMA is to promote racing. And thats what they are trying to do,...by making it affordable again and feasible for the average rider who isnt on a factory payroll.
The whole thing makes perfect sense for anyone who races. Who is going to argue about the AMA wanting things more fair and more affordable???? Who?? The Top few pros and the ones who just left the dealer with a new 450...thats who.
The manufacturers make money by spending millions and millions on dirtbike racing each year. If they didnt, why do it?
Many say that our ATV dollars go there and thats why the have the money to do it. I say that is a good assumption....however it is totally not true.
The manufactures are going to spend money based on public impact...which dirtbike racing brings across to more interested people than ATV racing or utility quad televised broadcasts do. It's been going on since the Japs put MXers on our soil in 1972. I dont think the sales from the ATC90 had anything to do with their race expenditures.
#5
07-09-2007 | 07:48 PM
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Future for the 450
I dont think 450s are going anywhere in the ATV world. ATVs outsell motorcycles and dirtbikes combined. The market is doing well, every OEM has one now and their poularity is on a steady upward trend. Theres no way the OEMs are going to sit back this time with their finger up there @$$ and let this happen again (nor should the ATVing community). There is too much at stake and $$$ involved. Honda will not be hurt as they were the ones who prompted the ATVA (sister organization, not officially under the AMA; AMA announced recently that It has pro ATV class aside from the ATVA) 450 class rule change (from 440) to begin with. recall that Yamahas 450 was originally a 439cc...
Honda asked them "how commited they were to the 440cc limit" prior to them anouncing the trx450r. The big red army will have its way. They havent been spectacular in some peoples eyes on releasing every bike they want but NO other oem got the rule changed, except honda because THEY wanted a 450, not a 440 class machine.
it just goes to show our offroad leadership has some puss tendencies by declaring that people cant handle the power, etc so lets be counterproductive in RACING and make SLOWER machines either by restriction or lower cc (which pople wil stil sqeeze out every once of HP possible and then go faster, so wth??) its nonsense. if they cant handle it, dont ride it. Its racing, its competition. If you cant afford to race, then DONT RACE! So lets go back to the 'underpowered' 250Rs (which the pros really didnt want to give up in the first place)...doesnt matter to me, its a better bike anyway.
In recent years, atvs are getting advancements BEFORE the dirtbikes now as they are selling them in greater #'s. EFI ring a bell? It did first on kawasaki and
suzuki...
im sure you all know abou this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >
New Pro Class Details Announced for the 2007 AMA ITP/Moose ATV National Motocross Championships Presented by Parts Unlimited
Morgantown, WV - The ATV Promoters Group (ATVPG), in cooperation with AMA Racing and ATVA, is proud to announce details about the newly created ATV Pro division at AMA Racing. The 2007 AMA ITP/Moose ATV National Motocross Championships will crown the first-ever AMA Pro ATV Champion.
The new ATV Pro Racing status elevates the sport to the professional level of racing enjoyed by AMA Motocross, AMA Supercross, AMA Suberbike, AMA Supermoto, and AMA Flat Track.
Steve Whitelock, AMA Supercross and Motocross Director, announced the creation of the ATV Pro division of AMA Pro Racing on November 11, 2006, at the 2006 ATVA National Motocross Championship Awards Ceremony in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee.
With the recognition of AMA Pro ATV status, the ATV Pro class riders will enjoy AMA Pro License benefits, such as a $50,000 rider medical insurance program, issuance of a pro license, and award of the AMA Pro National Championship No. 1 plate at the annual AMA Pro Racing Awards Banquet in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Last week, 51 ATV racers were issued invitations by AMA Pro Racing to apply for the AMA Pro ATV license. The annual fee for the license is $250, and entitles the holder to free gate entry to all ATV motocross national events. All riders participating in the Pro class must hold an AMA Pro ATV license. Licenses must be applied for and issued in advance by the AMA, and cannot be obtained at the events.
Pro riders who did not receive an application should contact AMA Pro Racing at 800.AMA JOIN.
As AMA Pro Racing Motocross Director, Whitelock will oversee the new ATV Pro division for AMA. A Series Manager will be announced soon by AMA Pro Racing, to attend and officiate the Pro class at all events. A further significant development resulting from ATV's new status with Pro Racing is the creation of the AMA Pro Racing Rulebook, setting forth rules specifically applicable to ATV Pro Racing. The ATV Rules Committee is finalizing the Rulebook at this time, and will release the new book shortly.
About AMA Pro Racing:
AMA Pro Racing is the professional racing division of the American Motorcyclist Association ("AMA"). 2007 will mark the inaugural year for AMA Pro ATV Racing, as the sport's top pro riders will be recognized as professional-licensed racers by the AMA Pro Racing division. Founded in 1924, the AMA has an unparalleled history of pursuing, protecting and promoting the interests of the world's largest and most dedicated group of motorcycle enthusiasts. The AMA focuses on rights, riding and racing through its government relations work, by sanctioning road and off-road riding activities and overseeing professional and amateur racing events. For more information about AMA Pro ATV Racing, visit www.amaproracing.com.
About the ATVA:
The ATV Association ("ATVA") is the official sanctioning body of the amateur divisions of the ATVA ITP/Moose ATV National Motocross Championship Series Presented by Parts Unlimited. The 9,000 member ATVA is the sister organization of the 260,000 member American Motorcyclist Association ("AMA"). ATV racing has experienced phenomenal growth at the rate of 25% in the past two years alone, and continues to gain momentum and support, outselling off-road motorcycles annually. Each round attracts 600-700 racers who compete for bragging rights to one of 31 amateur national titles. For more information about ATVA, visit www.atvaonline.com.
About the ATVPG:
The ATVPG is comprised of the 12 individual promoters that host the AMA ITP/Moose ATV National Motocross Championships, presented by Parts Unlimited. The goal of the ATVPG is to raise awareness of ATV motocross through the production of professional and amateur championship racing events. For more information on the ATVPG and the ATV National events they produce, go to www.atvmotocross.com.
Honda asked them "how commited they were to the 440cc limit" prior to them anouncing the trx450r. The big red army will have its way. They havent been spectacular in some peoples eyes on releasing every bike they want but NO other oem got the rule changed, except honda because THEY wanted a 450, not a 440 class machine.
it just goes to show our offroad leadership has some puss tendencies by declaring that people cant handle the power, etc so lets be counterproductive in RACING and make SLOWER machines either by restriction or lower cc (which pople wil stil sqeeze out every once of HP possible and then go faster, so wth??) its nonsense. if they cant handle it, dont ride it. Its racing, its competition. If you cant afford to race, then DONT RACE! So lets go back to the 'underpowered' 250Rs (which the pros really didnt want to give up in the first place)...doesnt matter to me, its a better bike anyway.
In recent years, atvs are getting advancements BEFORE the dirtbikes now as they are selling them in greater #'s. EFI ring a bell? It did first on kawasaki and
suzuki...
im sure you all know abou this:
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >
New Pro Class Details Announced for the 2007 AMA ITP/Moose ATV National Motocross Championships Presented by Parts Unlimited
Morgantown, WV - The ATV Promoters Group (ATVPG), in cooperation with AMA Racing and ATVA, is proud to announce details about the newly created ATV Pro division at AMA Racing. The 2007 AMA ITP/Moose ATV National Motocross Championships will crown the first-ever AMA Pro ATV Champion.
The new ATV Pro Racing status elevates the sport to the professional level of racing enjoyed by AMA Motocross, AMA Supercross, AMA Suberbike, AMA Supermoto, and AMA Flat Track.
Steve Whitelock, AMA Supercross and Motocross Director, announced the creation of the ATV Pro division of AMA Pro Racing on November 11, 2006, at the 2006 ATVA National Motocross Championship Awards Ceremony in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee.
With the recognition of AMA Pro ATV status, the ATV Pro class riders will enjoy AMA Pro License benefits, such as a $50,000 rider medical insurance program, issuance of a pro license, and award of the AMA Pro National Championship No. 1 plate at the annual AMA Pro Racing Awards Banquet in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Last week, 51 ATV racers were issued invitations by AMA Pro Racing to apply for the AMA Pro ATV license. The annual fee for the license is $250, and entitles the holder to free gate entry to all ATV motocross national events. All riders participating in the Pro class must hold an AMA Pro ATV license. Licenses must be applied for and issued in advance by the AMA, and cannot be obtained at the events.
Pro riders who did not receive an application should contact AMA Pro Racing at 800.AMA JOIN.
As AMA Pro Racing Motocross Director, Whitelock will oversee the new ATV Pro division for AMA. A Series Manager will be announced soon by AMA Pro Racing, to attend and officiate the Pro class at all events. A further significant development resulting from ATV's new status with Pro Racing is the creation of the AMA Pro Racing Rulebook, setting forth rules specifically applicable to ATV Pro Racing. The ATV Rules Committee is finalizing the Rulebook at this time, and will release the new book shortly.
About AMA Pro Racing:
AMA Pro Racing is the professional racing division of the American Motorcyclist Association ("AMA"). 2007 will mark the inaugural year for AMA Pro ATV Racing, as the sport's top pro riders will be recognized as professional-licensed racers by the AMA Pro Racing division. Founded in 1924, the AMA has an unparalleled history of pursuing, protecting and promoting the interests of the world's largest and most dedicated group of motorcycle enthusiasts. The AMA focuses on rights, riding and racing through its government relations work, by sanctioning road and off-road riding activities and overseeing professional and amateur racing events. For more information about AMA Pro ATV Racing, visit www.amaproracing.com.
About the ATVA:
The ATV Association ("ATVA") is the official sanctioning body of the amateur divisions of the ATVA ITP/Moose ATV National Motocross Championship Series Presented by Parts Unlimited. The 9,000 member ATVA is the sister organization of the 260,000 member American Motorcyclist Association ("AMA"). ATV racing has experienced phenomenal growth at the rate of 25% in the past two years alone, and continues to gain momentum and support, outselling off-road motorcycles annually. Each round attracts 600-700 racers who compete for bragging rights to one of 31 amateur national titles. For more information about ATVA, visit www.atvaonline.com.
About the ATVPG:
The ATVPG is comprised of the 12 individual promoters that host the AMA ITP/Moose ATV National Motocross Championships, presented by Parts Unlimited. The goal of the ATVPG is to raise awareness of ATV motocross through the production of professional and amateur championship racing events. For more information on the ATVPG and the ATV National events they produce, go to www.atvmotocross.com.
#6
07-18-2007 | 09:56 AM
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Future for the 450
You've got it all wrong!
This rumor is in fact NOT TRUE..... it has been misinterpreted by everyone, and some dummy from the FIM misunderstood the AMA angle on the rules and started going ape and panic soon set in.......
I spoke with Bevo Forte himself via e-mail on this supposed rumor last year when it started, and he said there is nothing to it. The 450cc is going to be the standard going forward. What is banned is any twin cylinder engines and anything above 450cc... and this was put in in 2006. They were worried that some manufacturer was going to come up with a 450cc twin machine that would raise the standard yet again. So to keep costs within reason, and to keep the privateer racer in the game, they decided to put the rules into the books once and for all.
They are certainly not worried that the riders can't handle the machines, that is just a ridiculous notion. There are many riders who are constantly looking for more power. The guys who weigh 200-pounds would love to have more power to keep up with the guys who weigh 160-pounds.
Kevin Windham (190) has openly complained that guys like Bubba (160) and RC (165) are tough to keep up with out of the corner and up the big MX hills. Tyler Evans is like 220-pounds, and would love to have more power out of his 450cc, but it's just not there. Restricting speed would not help the slower riders keep up, the gap would be he same. And this domination by one rider has always been a factor in MX/SX racing, it has NOTHING to do with the 4-stroke 450cc bike. McGrath dominated on a 2-stroke, and RC won all of his early titles on a 2-stroke. In fact Carmichael did not switch to the 450cc until the 2002 season when Kevin Windham was on his tail the entire MX season. K-Dub clearly had the faster bike, but RC still managed to beat him 80% of the time.
The sound requirements are being easily met by the 450cc bikes, and in fact they are only 1-2db louder than the 250cc bikes, so it makes zero sense to consider knocking them down to 300cc or something like that because they would not be any quieter.
The 450cc machine is going nowhere in MX/SX. And the talent gap is closing now, because of the 4-strokes, not in spite of them...... RC is gone, and Stewart will be the new man to beat. But unlike RCs early seasons in the top class, Bubba will have a lot more talent to deal with. Kids like Millsaps, Villopoto, Alessi, Hepler, Dungey etc...etc.. are going to close that supposed competition gap.
This rumor is in fact NOT TRUE..... it has been misinterpreted by everyone, and some dummy from the FIM misunderstood the AMA angle on the rules and started going ape and panic soon set in.......
I spoke with Bevo Forte himself via e-mail on this supposed rumor last year when it started, and he said there is nothing to it. The 450cc is going to be the standard going forward. What is banned is any twin cylinder engines and anything above 450cc... and this was put in in 2006. They were worried that some manufacturer was going to come up with a 450cc twin machine that would raise the standard yet again. So to keep costs within reason, and to keep the privateer racer in the game, they decided to put the rules into the books once and for all.
They are certainly not worried that the riders can't handle the machines, that is just a ridiculous notion. There are many riders who are constantly looking for more power. The guys who weigh 200-pounds would love to have more power to keep up with the guys who weigh 160-pounds.
Kevin Windham (190) has openly complained that guys like Bubba (160) and RC (165) are tough to keep up with out of the corner and up the big MX hills. Tyler Evans is like 220-pounds, and would love to have more power out of his 450cc, but it's just not there. Restricting speed would not help the slower riders keep up, the gap would be he same. And this domination by one rider has always been a factor in MX/SX racing, it has NOTHING to do with the 4-stroke 450cc bike. McGrath dominated on a 2-stroke, and RC won all of his early titles on a 2-stroke. In fact Carmichael did not switch to the 450cc until the 2002 season when Kevin Windham was on his tail the entire MX season. K-Dub clearly had the faster bike, but RC still managed to beat him 80% of the time.
The sound requirements are being easily met by the 450cc bikes, and in fact they are only 1-2db louder than the 250cc bikes, so it makes zero sense to consider knocking them down to 300cc or something like that because they would not be any quieter.
The 450cc machine is going nowhere in MX/SX. And the talent gap is closing now, because of the 4-strokes, not in spite of them...... RC is gone, and Stewart will be the new man to beat. But unlike RCs early seasons in the top class, Bubba will have a lot more talent to deal with. Kids like Millsaps, Villopoto, Alessi, Hepler, Dungey etc...etc.. are going to close that supposed competition gap.
#7
07-18-2007 | 10:12 AM
Shed Knocker Rider
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 35,876
Likes: 2
Future for the 450
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: ss97
Kids like Millsaps, Villopoto, Alessi, Hepler, Dungey etc...etc.. are going to close that supposed competition gap.</end quote></div>
I know this is getting a bit off subject, but none of them are going to close the competition gap that Bubba has on the rest of the field. The only ones I can see even making a slight dent in the gap is Villo and Townley.
Remember Bubba in the 125's? He killed everyone even on a pinger, no one has put that much of a beating on the lites class since, not even Villo, although he is quite impressive.
Kids like Millsaps, Villopoto, Alessi, Hepler, Dungey etc...etc.. are going to close that supposed competition gap.</end quote></div>
I know this is getting a bit off subject, but none of them are going to close the competition gap that Bubba has on the rest of the field. The only ones I can see even making a slight dent in the gap is Villo and Townley.
Remember Bubba in the 125's? He killed everyone even on a pinger, no one has put that much of a beating on the lites class since, not even Villo, although he is quite impressive.
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#8
07-18-2007 | 08:04 PM
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Future for the 450
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: motox26
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: ss97
Kids like Millsaps, Villopoto, Alessi, Hepler, Dungey etc...etc.. are going to close that supposed competition gap.</end quote></div>
I know this is getting a bit off subject, but none of them are going to close the competition gap that Bubba has on the rest of the field. The only ones I can see even making a slight dent in the gap is Villo and Townley.
Remember Bubba in the 125's? He killed everyone even on a pinger, no one has put that much of a beating on the lites class since, not even Villo, although he is quite impressive.</end quote></div>
Tough to say.... for the most part I kinda agree that Villopoto is the only guy with a legit shot to know off Bubba...
But, there are holes in Bubba's game, that were not there in RCs game at the same age..... Bubba throws it away often enough to give people behind him the confidence they need to keep pushing him...
RC got to the point where mistakes were so few and far between that he killed the spirit of everyone behind him... Everyone was sure that K-Dub was going to eat RC alive in 2002, when RC was still running the 2-stroke, and K-Dub was on the 4-stroke..... But RC would not be beat .. there was no advantage that could beat him......
Heck, Bubba has still not proven he can beat RC, not even now when RC on his retirement tour.... If RC continued the full season, Bubba would once again be #2....
Bubba has a lot of work to do in order to erase the ****** in his armor. Until then the guys who are in shape and get a sniff of his pace with a good start, are not going to go away.
Look at Mike Alessi in recent weeks.... the kid has run with Bubba for longer stretches than anyone has. But Millsaps has also had moments where he showed the speed was there..... Both those kids are 18, and they will get better.....
Villopoto is every bit as talented as Bubba, maybe more... Of course he is going to have to prove it too....
Right now, when RC retires, Bubba is going to be #1, and no one is going to touch him THIS year... but his reign of being the Alpha-Rider is going to be far more fragile than RCs ever was.....
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: ss97
Kids like Millsaps, Villopoto, Alessi, Hepler, Dungey etc...etc.. are going to close that supposed competition gap.</end quote></div>
I know this is getting a bit off subject, but none of them are going to close the competition gap that Bubba has on the rest of the field. The only ones I can see even making a slight dent in the gap is Villo and Townley.
Remember Bubba in the 125's? He killed everyone even on a pinger, no one has put that much of a beating on the lites class since, not even Villo, although he is quite impressive.</end quote></div>
Tough to say.... for the most part I kinda agree that Villopoto is the only guy with a legit shot to know off Bubba...
But, there are holes in Bubba's game, that were not there in RCs game at the same age..... Bubba throws it away often enough to give people behind him the confidence they need to keep pushing him...
RC got to the point where mistakes were so few and far between that he killed the spirit of everyone behind him... Everyone was sure that K-Dub was going to eat RC alive in 2002, when RC was still running the 2-stroke, and K-Dub was on the 4-stroke..... But RC would not be beat .. there was no advantage that could beat him......
Heck, Bubba has still not proven he can beat RC, not even now when RC on his retirement tour.... If RC continued the full season, Bubba would once again be #2....
Bubba has a lot of work to do in order to erase the ****** in his armor. Until then the guys who are in shape and get a sniff of his pace with a good start, are not going to go away.
Look at Mike Alessi in recent weeks.... the kid has run with Bubba for longer stretches than anyone has. But Millsaps has also had moments where he showed the speed was there..... Both those kids are 18, and they will get better.....
Villopoto is every bit as talented as Bubba, maybe more... Of course he is going to have to prove it too....
Right now, when RC retires, Bubba is going to be #1, and no one is going to touch him THIS year... but his reign of being the Alpha-Rider is going to be far more fragile than RCs ever was.....
#9
07-19-2007 | 09:09 AM
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<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: ss97
Heck, Bubba has still not proven he can beat RC, not even now when RC on his retirement tour.... If RC continued the full season, Bubba would once again be #2....
...</end quote></div>
I hope you mean in outdoors, because I agree with that, but in SX, RC hasn't ever beat Bubba unless Bubba beat himself by wrecking.
It's like they are both the best at either SX or MX.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]
Heck, Bubba has still not proven he can beat RC, not even now when RC on his retirement tour.... If RC continued the full season, Bubba would once again be #2....
...</end quote></div>
I hope you mean in outdoors, because I agree with that, but in SX, RC hasn't ever beat Bubba unless Bubba beat himself by wrecking.
It's like they are both the best at either SX or MX.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]
#10
07-19-2007 | 09:58 AM
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Future for the 450
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: motox26
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: ss97
Heck, Bubba has still not proven he can beat RC, not even now when RC on his retirement tour.... If RC continued the full season, Bubba would once again be #2....
...</end quote></div>
I hope you mean in outdoors, because I agree with that, but in SX, RC hasn't ever beat Bubba unless Bubba beat himself by wrecking.
It's like they are both the best at either SX or MX.[IMG][/IMG]</end quote></div>
Oh yea I was talking MX .....
Yea in SX the only guy who beats Bubba is....BUBBA!!!
Although you can't help but think Villopoto might have something to show us when he makes the jump to the big class. He as darn near perfect last year, he was just dominating.....
But it will be a couple years at least until Villopoto has anything for Bubba.... I think the big #7 is going to be dominating. RC never had a perfect SX season, but Bubba could if he just stays rubber side own.....
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: ss97
Heck, Bubba has still not proven he can beat RC, not even now when RC on his retirement tour.... If RC continued the full season, Bubba would once again be #2....
...</end quote></div>
I hope you mean in outdoors, because I agree with that, but in SX, RC hasn't ever beat Bubba unless Bubba beat himself by wrecking.
It's like they are both the best at either SX or MX.[IMG][/IMG]</end quote></div>
Oh yea I was talking MX .....
Yea in SX the only guy who beats Bubba is....BUBBA!!!
Although you can't help but think Villopoto might have something to show us when he makes the jump to the big class. He as darn near perfect last year, he was just dominating.....
But it will be a couple years at least until Villopoto has anything for Bubba.... I think the big #7 is going to be dominating. RC never had a perfect SX season, but Bubba could if he just stays rubber side own.....
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