*Were you aware that in a typical aumotive tranny, that they are only about 70 - 75% efficient?

I thought we were talking about ATV's?

*Using your 15% loss, if they measured 46 hp at the rear wheels, then the crank hp would be 46 / .85 = 54 hp.

I took the numbers straight out of the DW article, no HP numbers were listed for crank output, but, if you calculate the numbers of estimated HP gained per mod listed, according to Hot Seat, you have 56HP at the crank. The 15% loss of HP was an estimate, which seems fairly close, in that particular application. Stock efficientcy loss numbers are most likely higher. But, as I stated in the previous post, I was defending a "properly tuned" CVT, not OEM.

*First off, Yamaha doesn't list a hp number...

Again, I used numbers straight from the DW article.

*Pricing is only relevant if you make ALL things equal - weight, power (at the rear wheels), handling, suspension, reliablity, etc.

If ALL things were equal there would only be 1 ATV to choose from? Again, it is up to the individual buyer to make their choice of ATV based upon the intended use of it, and what features are a priority to them. Thats why we have several manufacturers making several ATV's, so buyers can prioritize what features they prefere and buy the ATV that suits them best.

*I paid $5960 out the door for my '99 Banshee. What'd you pay out the door???

$4850. What mods I have on mine, and how much they cost are a completly different issue. As I said earlier the slightest change of 2gms. in flyweights can through the entire efficiency matter into a downward spiral.



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Jerry Goodman '99 400L, '98 TBlazer

 

I'm sure the PVT on the polaris cant take away that much power. You would think polaris would have perfected the design with there snowmobiles. One would think shifting on a snowmobile would really slow it down. The pvt is a great way to keep the engine in its power band, have no loss of speed from stifting, and they can tune engines to really make power in a small powerband. Im glad to see, that a polaris is even in any competition with a full race quad. (banshee) Thats not what the 400 2x4 or scramblers were intended for. When polaris finally makes there race quad, look out.

Whats the comparing automobile trannys with manual trannys? Thats a completely different setup! The auto tranny still has gears to shift...The PVT is infinatly variable..

 

I just recieved the February 2000 edition of 4WA and suprise surprise, It lists the horsepower (dyno charts) of the quads competing in the latest Pike's Peak race. It's funny how much it took the builders of these machines (some 400+ cc) just to get 50 horsepower out of their machines. Why, all you have to do is to slip on a set of pipes to get 50+ Hp, right? WRONG!

It is interesting to note that the only person who ran basically a stock Banshee (with pipes it's only motor mods) got a whopping 1.2 HP gain from using them (the pipes). The second least modified Banshee had pipes and 1mm bigger carbs and still only got 43.3 hp out of his machine on the rear wheel dyno.

Now before you scream, "But Mike that was at 9000 feet above sea level" the horsepower WAS CORRECTED for sea level. So it seems that the mighty Banshee might not respond to mods as well as every one says. Just as slipping on a set of pipes won't get you 46 rear wheel horsepower on a 400L you won't get 50 rear wheel horsepower from a Banshee by adding pipes. It seem that "Louder ain't necessarily faster". Hmm!

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Mike Chero 97 Polaris Sport 400L/ 97 Polaris Trailblazer 250ES

<A HREF="http://users.penn.com/~hal9000/mikeetta.html">MIKE & CELESTE'S ATV PAGE </A>

 

I completly argee. Banshee pipes dont add 17 hp as stated in another topic. You get louder, you get slight hp gain at peak HP, and maybe a 17 hp gain at a unusable RPM.

 

I just read an article in a snowmobile magazine that Olav Aaen ( Aaen Performance ) installed some custom pipes on a stock 800cc tripple and he got 22 more HP. It then would be hard for me to believe that a twin, less than half the size produced 75% as much HP with the same addition of aftermarket pipes. The figures however could be taken from different sources ( I.E. Crankshaft / Rear wheel ).

A month ago I was doing some 100 yard drags with my buddies. One had a stock 2000 Honda 400ex and other had a stock 1999 Banshee. I can beet them every time on any surface. Increase the distance to 200 yards and both bikes will pass me as their higher speed will dictate. If the banshee has let's say 35 HP stock and my bike is about 35% heavier than it is reasonable to assume that it should take 35% more power for my scrambler to be as fast as the Banshee. 35% of 35 HP is 12.75 HP and add that to 35 HP and you get 47.25 HP. This is around what Olav Aaen said the scrambler 500 motor puts out with their kit. Put pipes on either bike and they will both beat me in the 100 yard dash by a few bike lengths. If both those bike were close to 55 HP with their pipes they should have beaten me by lots more since they are at least 140 lbs lighter.

One another note i saw a guy last summer at the Pine Barrens that had a 98 Sport with the Aaen 440 big bore kit, Roller clutch, Ported head, 40mm Mikuni and a Wiseco hi compression piston. Every 100 drag was a total looser for me by 15 or 20 bike lengths. His bike had to be around 60 HP or more.

Chris Picciotto
99 Scrambler 500 ( Super High Output )

 

I've been doing even more investigation on this whole subject over the last few weeks. From what I have found (this is coming from professional engine builders and performance shops I have contacted), it sounds like there are quite a few misconceptions about the power output and potential of just about any two stroke engine. Shops/builders using both engine modeling software and actual dyno testing have confirmed many of the things I started this topic about, i.e., rear wheel hp of the Banshee and 400L, before and after modifications. Many of the posts in this thread have (from my investigations) been quite, uh well, incorrect.

Case in point would be the engine output numbers from software and from dyno testing that I received from a very knowledgable engine builder (Rick at www.macdizzy.com). Using both his modeling software and a dyno to verify the results, he determined that a piped and ported Banshee achieved an actual rear wheel hp of 54.3, and a crankshaft hp of 61. This was done at 350cc's, 26mm carbs (stock), and the engine was designed for 92 octane fuel. With a revised engine designed to run 110 octane race gas, the peak power output jumped to over 60 hp at the rear wheels but an increase in carb size was required as well.

So why post this? Well, considering that no one here has claimed to be a professional engine builder, I have to dismiss many of the comments made. There simply hasn't been much factual backing of some of these posts. Some people do have good, accurate details, but some are obviously from less credible sources. You all know where you stand. I'm not knocking anyone in particular.

Prior to starting this thread, I was basing my conclusions on what I've seen in print. Period. If someone cannot show me on paper that a qualified source of information has conducted a test and realized stated results, then I cannot deem the claims credible. I now have even more evidence to back up what I have said (at least on Banshee power output capabilities). I was not right about everything, but neither was anyone else.

Another issue, specifically aimed at the Feb 4WA (which I have not seen yet) is that we do not know what state of tune these Pike's Peak motors are designed for. It is very possible that peak hp is not the best way to get up the hill, rather a very wide powerband and useable torque curve may be necessary for these engines, especially since they are designed for use at roughly 30 - 80 mph. High peak hp and a broad powerband are two contradictory situations within a two stroke engine. Achieving the highest output ALWAYS is at the expense of powerband width. Another issue is that these motors are nearly wide open for over ten minutes straight. Not much, you say? When was the last time you held the throttle wide open while climbing a hill for more than 10 minutes? This puts much more additional stress on the engine, and the lower power levels are likely necessary to allow the engine to SURVIVE the race, much less make it to the top.

I have most of the answers to the questions I posed originally. For those of you that gave credible input, thanks.

 

Sandman:

What information in this thread is it that you feel is..."uh well, incorrect"?

In you quest for correct information did you contact any of the top Polaris engine builders?

Reviewing your first post you asked why you "keep hearing a modded 400L will smoke a Banshee?" From my personal experience I'm reffering to drags of 200' or less, which is where I think the Polaris has a definate advantage with the CVT. Of course I'm also talking about 400L's with at least $2500 in them, as opposed to the Banshee typicaly seen that may have $1500 in them (at least in my area).

Of course factor in the $1200 differance in the initial purchase of the ATV (new MSRP), you still have nearly 1K more in the Polaris, which can largely be attributed to "tuning" the CVT.

Where am I going with this..I'm not sure, except to say that there are a select few Polaris' out there who can smoke a Banshee, and I think you would be very impressed once you saw a "real" modded 400L in action.



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Jerry Goodman '99 400L, '98 TBlazer

 

BTW: Isn't it great to participate in a thread that hasn't been polluted by a bunch of trash talking, and name calling?

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Jerry Goodman '99 400L, '98 TBlazer

 

A400L is right. Honestly 99%, of the Banshees I've ever seen usually have nothing done to them. They are as stock as they came from the showroom floor (including stock bald tires). Once in a great while I'll come upon one owner who has actually changed tires to a better brand. And once I even saw one with pipes on it(oooohh). I asked some guys once why they didn't modify their Banshees, do you want to know why? MONEY. They were so busy financing their Banshees that they had no money left over for mods.

Sandmanblue, don't get me wrong, I'm not a Polaris fanatic (anymore). I do wish that they would stop bringing out under powered quads that no one buys (Diesel, Xpedition, both Magnum 325s, Sportsman 335) and stop making their frames out of lead so that they weigh a ton. The crazy thing is that they'll NEVER make a high performance quad! They'd rather come out with a 2000 hp snowmobile that does mach 1 through the trees, than come out with a quad that has as much horsepower as mine. We as Polaris quad riders deserve better.

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Mike Chero 97 Polaris Sport 400L/ 97 Polaris Trailblazer 250ES

<A HREF="http://users.penn.com/~hal9000/mikeetta.html">MIKE & CELESTE'S ATV PAGE </A>



[This message has been edited by Mike Chero (edited 01-05-2000).]

 

The reason banshees arent commonly moded is the cost. You must start with pipes, and ouch, theres 2 of them! I think polaris makes great quads, they are a change from other atv's. They will change the market because they are constantly bettering there atv line up. They have made more imporvements this year than yahama has done to there quads in over 10 years. This will be the company to beat. This is great competition for the other companys, and this is great for us! Anyone who doesnt think so, should go hop on there decade year old quad and love it, because there wont be any changes without competition.