Originally posted by: BryceGTX
For years, Toyota has branded themselves as a "quality" auto maker. Thus, they don't discount nearly as much. I worked for a large company that owned various dealerships including Toyota, Ford, Pontiac, and a few others in various markets. In EVERY segment, the imports averaged higher margins by significant amounts. Why, because the domestic builders got themselves in a pickle when there were quality questions. And, the questions were in fact valid at the time. So, the discount the heck out of their vehicles through "cash back", large dealer incentives which were almost always passed on to the customer, ridiculous financing, and every other poorly planned give-a-way they could think of.

It would be instructive to also point out that even though domestic manufacturers may have had quality problems many years ago, we can't ignore the imports were incapable of lasting without completely rusting ou in only a few years. And if you wanted to fix your own car, imports parts were so expensive that you might as well throw the car away. Futhermore, their production facilities were not in the US, so they were a capital drain on our economy even then. It is for these reasons that imports were very bad. So don't just point out the problems with domestic autos and ignore the import problems.

I have proven this in several industries and the poll takers back me up in nearly every count. PRICE DOES NOT SELL. It sounds simple right? But, you and others probably don't agree. Then why, with higher pricing, do imports sell very well against domestics? Why don't the major import brands get into the pricing war as much? They don't have to.

This is a very interesting comment. I guess we forgot about all the people that bought GM in june eh?. And the imports are lower priced than domestic. If we come the Camry to the Taurus, we find the Camry is $2000 cheaper. So price does matter.

In this alleged pro buy American society, as one of the polls on this thread revealed, imports do extremely well. Is a Toyota matrix REALLY better than a Pontiac Vibe? I don't know. I have never driven either. But, for the most part, the American public has a very open mind when shopping for cars and anything else for that matter. Even though GM and Ford are putting out some decent products, they are not packaged well. In general, they don't "feel" as good. The interior materials are not as "rich" feeling. Their designs are still behind the imports in general. Go ahead, flame me on this if you like. But, the imports are selling more vehicles at higher prices in important catagories. Telling people to "buy American" just isn't going to get it.

The Matrix is also $2000 cheaper than the Pontiac Vibe. The imports are selling vehicles at lower prices and thats why they are selling, so I don't see where your argument is coming from.

Take the new Mustang, for example. It is a decent looking car with some good power in the GT form and it is priced right. But, they veered too far from the prototype, which was beautiful, plus it had an independant rear suspension. Yes, I know that it is difficult to stay close to the original designs because of safety, cost, etc. But, the imports do it. The imports also do a very good job of getting very good power from smaller motors. The 350Z (I owned a 2003) is amazing. Lots of torque, 287-300HP all from a super smooth running VQ 3.5L with a GREAT shifting short throw transmission. I raced my Z and she was VERY competitve.

I am not sure why you are comparing a Mustang at base MSRP $24000 with a Z that at base MSRP of $27000. Even the most expensive hardtop GT is only $26750 whereas the Z is $36000. Maybe you should pick a more realistic comparison.

If you want to compete, quit dropping pricing and branding yourself as a "discount" builder. Put some more money into the touchy feely parts of the interior. Hire some designers with some serious talent and then have the ***** to go with the project. A couple of examples...Solstice, 350Z, Chrysler 300, Dodge Magnum, Corvette, Scion (ugly but marketable), etc... The Solstice, IMO, is a missed opportunity. There should be a more powerful motor option and most of all, the base price should have been increased by $1500 - $2000. They would not lose many sales over that price difference.

It seems to me that the domestic automakers must drop prices to compete with cheaper off-shore models. Since as we have seen "PRICE MATTERS".

Go ahead Bryce, attack well thought out ideas. Attack me personally for not knowing what I am talking about. Tell me I should apply for the GM CEO position. Oh yea, tell me I am not who I say I am. Ha! Ha! My ideas speak for themselves and they are backed up by fact, experience, and very basic knowledge.

Just because you thought them out quite well does not mean they are valid. I seriously think you should apply at GM.. you have all of their problems solved. I can't tell you who you are not, because I don't know who you are. And since you posted your ideas in this forum, they are always open to debate.. just like mine.

[/b]05PRED500[/b]
Misrepresenting again, huh Bryce?

Look at ALL of the options and all of the factors. BTW...Ford is getting that 153hp from a 3L V6 na dToyota is getting 160HP from a 2.4L 4cyl. Nevertheless, you do still get a V6, Keyless Entry, Aluminum wheels, trip computer, floor mats. To top it all off, you failed to mention that the Taurus has more torque at 185lb ft vs 163 lb ft. Don't forget the phenominal finance deals that Ford provides. Toyota almost never has deals as good.

First of all, the base model is by no means the biggest seller for either company. When you start to move into the higher level models, the Camry really jumps up in price. So, go check your information a-gain...

Of course, you can buy a Taurus for less than you can a Camry after discounts, yet the Camry out sells the Taurus. Why do you think this is?

Originally posted by: BryceGTX
Not misrepresenting at all. Fact is foreign engines are typically smaller with higher HP per displacement. Seeing that the Toyota is a high performace DOHC engine and the Ford is a push rod engine and since both engines are the same HP, they are equivalent. The average driver will see little difference in the drivability of those two cars. Both models are base models, but the Toyota has an optional automatic. I guess you forgot to mention that the Toyota has a 6 speaker premium sound system with CD. The Taurus has a cassette deck. So lets see, $15 for floor mats, the Taurus does not come with aluminum wheels so I'm not sure where you're coming from there. The trip computer is pretty much a marketing gimick. So I would just call it even just so you don't look bad. As far as out the door pricing, whatever you can get from the dealer is how good a bargain hunter you are. If you are a poor bargain hunter, you will get no deal from a Toyota dealer. So that is up to you. Seems to me, that you have no argument for price. Fact is "PRICE MATTERS" and cheap imports sell easier.

Now if you want to compare the V6 Camry againt a Ford, we have to move up a notch because the Taurus does not have a 210-225 hp V6 and that really would be unreasonable to compare to a Taurus. For that comparison, we need to step up to the Ford 500 which has a 203 hp v6 in it. Now the Ford 500 is closer to the price of the high end Camry, but it is considerably better car than the Camry.

Originally posted by: BryceGTX
I wouldn't be hired at GM. My ideas to shape up the company and make it strong just wouldn't be popular with too many people. But, then again, I really don't care if I am popular so long as I get the job done.

You wouldn't last at GM because you would not be able to work in a corporate environment where working with people is more important that forcing your ideas on people. So yes, by your own admission, you would not succede in that invironment and that is exactly my point.

And your little snide remark about me selling "cheap off-shore widgets" shows your complete ignorance of my business and my industry. Also, I would guess that I contribute more to our economy than you could even wish.

Hmm.. I can't be ignorant about your business, you have told me everything about it!! And I doubt that you contribute to the US economy more than me because it is clear that you send many more dollars off-shore in both your business and your personal buying habits. Seems to me you are literally killing our economy!!

Originally posted by: BryceGTX
Those 2 vehicles face up head to head every year in the mid size sedan class. Again, you didn't address all of the options that would have to be added on to make the Toyota match evenly with the Taurus. Like I said, base models make up a relatively small percentage of a makes sales. So, comparing a mid level model of each car, the Camry is more expensive. Where can I get factory floor mats for $15 anyway. I will start a mail order floor mat company. Dealer cost on them is $114!!

You are right, to get the 4 speaker CD on the Taurus requires an extra $150. I guess that pretty much eats up your overpriced floor mats!!

Besides, based on your posts, you believe that "most" of America would rather buy American. Then again, the Camry is more American than many domestics.

And many more domestics are more American than Camry. I don't buy the argument that just because some small amount of a domestic auto is off-shore, I should go all the way and buy a vehicle that is even a higher percentage of off-shore content. However, that is your argument.

It is funny how you keep saying "cheap imports". I don't own a Toyota right now. But, I have driven numerous model years of both vehicles. The Taurus has toms of squeaks and rattles after only a year or so of driving. It also feels sort of sloppy and the throttle response stinks. Have you driven a Camry? These cars are amazingly solid feeling, like a bank vault. It certainly isn't sporty by any means. But, it has an outstanding feel and it is ultra quiet. No one in their right mind could criticize the Camry as a cheap car that lacks quality. I have not driven a 500 but, the interior of the Taurus is built with far cheaper materials and fabrics than the Camry.

Cheap imports means they cost less than domestics. I have made this point quite clear. And the Taurus is a very good vehicle that has no squeak and rattle problems. My guess is that you have never been in a Taurus. Your description of the Tausrus clinches the fact that you have never been in a Taurus. The Tauruses I have had the oppurtunity to drive were as rock solid as when they were new, even at 100,000 miles. And I never said Camry lacks quality. And I have yet to notice the higher quality of the interior of the Camry that you speak of. I guess its just you blowing smoke again.

I also find it funny that you wrote about the engines the way you did. It's almost like you were selling me on the fact that the Toyota engine is so much better, and it really is. But, that goes back to what I was saying about domestic auto makers putting underpowered motors in their cars.

Quite the contrary, a lower HP per displacement motor will invariably last longer than the other. And furthermore, I would pit the durability of the Ford push rod engine against that Toyota 4 any day of the week. High performance very rarely translates to long durability. And I don't understand your comment about underpowered. They are the same HP!!

I disagree with you assesment about needing to be a good bargain hunter. Right now, the customer incentives on the Taurus total $3000.00 and that is prior to any negotiation. There are none on the Camry other than $400 for recent college graduates.

[b]Hmm.. I guess that is even a better reason to go with the Ford Taurus. And I guess we will see at the end of this month if the Taurus sells so well due to Ford's Family Plan program. If GM's success is any indicator, you will be eating crow again [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img][b]